This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.nikonians.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=113&forum=DCForumID114&viewmode=all as retrieved on Jul 18, 2005 01:03:51 GMT.
G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
The page may have changed since that time. Click here for the current page without highlighting.
This cached page may reference images which are no longer available. Click here for the cached text only.
To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:kFJI4s8rRx4J:www.nikonians.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dshow_thread%26om%3D113%26forum%3DDCForumID114%26viewmode%3Dall+site:www.nikonians.org+bclaff&hl=en


Google is neither affiliated with the authors of this page nor responsible for its content.
These search terms have been highlighted: bclaff 


Discussions @ Nikonians

Subject: "A method for locating the entrance pupil"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy    
Conferences IMAGE MAKING & SHOOTING ISSUES FORUMS Shooting Panoramas Topic #113
Reading Topic #113
bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2064 posts
26-May-05, 03:02 AM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to send private message to <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
"A method for locating the entrance pupil"
 
   LAST EDITED ON 02-Jun-05 AT 02:40 PM (GMT 2) by Paul_Fisher (admin)
 
I want to share this with anyone else who might find it useful.
I used this method to locate the rotation point for my 12-24mm@12mm and it worked quite well.

As an example I decided to apply the same technique to the question posed in Panoramas: Rotation Point for AF-S 18-70mm DX lens?
I will be referring to the following diagram, please excuse the quality of the image and my handwriting!

I took an ordinary 8 1/2x11 inch sheet of paper.
I drew two isosceles triangles with a base of 120mm and heights of 180mm and 240mm.
These triangles represent 1/2 the horizontal field of view at infinity at 18mm and 24mm focal lengths respectively.
(Notice 120mm is 10*(24mm/2), 180mm is 10*18mm, and 240mm is 10*24mm.)

I set the Focus-mode selector on my D70 body to M.
I set the focus on the lens to infinity.
I put the paper on a flat brightly lit surface.
I set the aperture for f/8 and the focal length to 12mm.
I turned grid lines on in the viewfinder.
With the camera turned on and the depth of field preview button depressed I positioned the camera on the paper so the long sides of the 18mm triangle matched the 1/4 and 3/4 gridlines.
I marked the position of the front edge of the lens on the paper.
I turned that camera over and measured the distance from the front edge of the lens to the middle of the tripod socket.
I measured the distance from the marked position on the paper to the triangle vertex.
The difference in these measurements is the distance from the tripod socket to the entrance pupil.
I repeated the procedure at 24mm.

According to my results the distances from the tripod socket forward to the entrance pupil is 74mm at 18mm focal length and 65mm at 24mm focal length.
(BTW, the 12-24mm@12mm value was 100mm).

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
A method for locating the entrance pupil [View All] bclaff</b>donator_silver 26-May-05 TOP
  RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil Blurtdonator_silver 26-May-05 1
     RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil bclaff</b>donator_silver 26-May-05 2
     RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil Ausoleildonator_silver 27-May-05 8
  RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil Chris B1donator_silver 27-May-05 3
     RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil bclaff</b>donator_silver 27-May-05 4
     RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil bclaff</b>donator_silver 27-May-05 5
         RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil Chris B1donator_silver 27-May-05 6
             RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil Ausoleildonator_silver 27-May-05 7
             RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil bclaff</b>donator_silver 27-May-05 9
                 RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil dwig 28-May-05 10
                 RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil Chris B1donator_silver 29-May-05 11
  RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil jbloomdonator_gold 29-May-05 12
     RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil jrpadmin 02-Jun-05 13
         RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil bclaff</b>donator_silver 04-Jun-05 14
             RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil jrpadmin 17-Jul-05 15

Home | Conferences | Forums | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Blurtdonator_silver
Member since 13-Dec-04
29 posts
26-May-05, 04:24 AM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail Blurt Click to send private message to Blurt Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #0
 
   Bill,

This is marvelous!

An interesting aspect of it is that it accords with the method used by Jerry Jongerius, the author of article linked by Charles', except that his involved a wider sweep in plotting has reference points

The results of the 2 methods are equal or very close, as far as I can see.

I would never have invented your method myself! Really wonderful.

Blurt

Blurt


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2064 posts
26-May-05, 05:45 AM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to send private message to <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #1
 
   David,

Thanks!
Someday I'll make a more polished write-up and put it on my web site.

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Ausoleildonator_silver
Member since 14-Apr-05
99 posts
27-May-05, 04:33 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail Ausoleil Click to send private message to Ausoleil Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
8. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #1
 
   Bill,

Please allow me to offer congratualtions and thanks for this incredibly useful chart. If you do not mind, I may use it as a basis for some calculations for my just-acquired 24-120 ED VR Nikkor.

Looking forward to your write-up!

Cheers,
Charles


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Chris B1donator_silver
Member since 6-Sep-04
193 posts
27-May-05, 02:06 AM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail Chris%20B1 Click to send private message to Chris%20B1 Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
3. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #0
 
   This is brilliant Bill. Have you thought about making up a table with the triangle sizes for different focal lengths. I will be doing this myself with my 12-24Dx and D100. I would like to do it for all the lenses I use for my panos up to 200mm. I'm just not sure of the math for the different FOV's and focal lengths to get the triangles correct. Thanks

Chris B1


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2064 posts
27-May-05, 02:55 AM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to send private message to <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #3
 
   Chris,

First, I use my 12-24DX and D70 at 12mm and the offset is 100mm.

The triangles are simple to construct.
Assuming you are using the viewfinder gridlines, the 1/4 and 3/4 lines are 12mm apart horizontally on a DX sensor; so this is the base of the isosceles triangle.
The focal length, for example 18mm is the height of the triangle.
The only important thing is the proportion, so for example we can multiple by 10; and make a triangle that has a 120mm base and is 180mm tall.

Multiplying by 10 or 15 is a good idea.
You may have to tape together a couple pieces of paper for longer focal lengths.

Remember, it is very important to do this at infinity or whatever focus point you will be using.


Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2064 posts
27-May-05, 03:12 AM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to send private message to <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
5. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #3
 
   Chris,

You also mentioned Field Of View (FOV) in your post.
When you constuct the traingles as instructed FOV "takes care of itself" because the focal length is the height of the triangle.

BTW, I seen no reason to measure the FOV of a lens unless you intend to focus at other than infinity.
In fact it's folly to measure at a short distance and apply that FOV for images taken at infinity.


Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Chris B1donator_silver
Member since 6-Sep-04
193 posts
27-May-05, 03:42 AM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail Chris%20B1 Click to send private message to Chris%20B1 Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
6. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #5
 
   Why I asked about FOV is that I use hyperfocal distances on my shorter lenses. I use hyperfocal distance if the scene is not too far from the lens. Example, photographing a tropical beach from the waterline. I like to get the foreground in focus as well as the beach and vegetation. I have been known to take my tripod into the water to shoot the beach (As I will be doing again later this year). So as you can see I don't always set focus at infinity for my panos. How does this affect the position of the entrance pupil. I expect that this is only impacted by which glass moves in focusing within the lens and where it is positioned within the lens. I might be splitting hairs as I suspect that there will only be mm's in it, except for my 70-200 possibly. Thoughts?

Chris B1


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Ausoleildonator_silver
Member since 14-Apr-05
99 posts
27-May-05, 03:55 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail Ausoleil Click to send private message to Ausoleil Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
7. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #6
 
   LAST EDITED ON 27-May-05 AT 03:56 PM (GMT 2)
 
Chris,

Your thinking on the problem is very sensible and has set me thinking...especially the part about tropical beaches, because I have just scheduled my annual trip to the Dutc Antilles for September and want to simply work and not think so much about the setup.

That said, rather than trying to solve this theoretically, I think it may actually be quicker to solve experimentally and then backfit the data. Something like three shot stitched showing a measured scale. Sounds like an early Sunday AM trip to the mall, where there is a virtual grid of lines in the parking may be in order!

Hyperfocus is often the difference between good and great, assuming that all other factors are relatively equal. A properly focused pano can certainly rival the best large-format shots, that much is certain.

Good shots to all, and cheers,

--Charles


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2064 posts
27-May-05, 11:15 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to send private message to <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
9. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #6
 
   Chris,

I suggest using my technique at infinity and at a hyperfocal setting and seeing for yourself how the entrance pupil is affected.
With sophiticated lens designs it's not obvious what the result will be.

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
dwig
Member since 30-May-04
336 posts
28-May-05, 05:33 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail dwig Click to send private message to dwig Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
10. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #9
 
   very true.

Also note that focusing many of today's complexly designed optics will actually alter the focal length slightly. This will compromise the accuracy of any FL-based system. It should also be noted that the actual focal length and the "advertised", or marked, focal length can differ by as much as 10%, assuming the lens manufacturer is sticking to the old JCII standards, or more (if they are not). Each manufactured sample will be slightly different and the design target can be 5-10% from the marked FL.

FL-based alignment systems are only modestly accurate though probably good enough for landscape work where nothing is closer to the camera than about 50-100x the focal length.

-----
dwig
nikonian in paradise (KW, FL)
Current: CP8400, CP950
Retired: F, ELw
Usedto's: F, F2, F3, Nikkormat FTn, 20 f/3.5, 35 f/1.4, 45GN, 55 f/3.5 Micro, 105 f/4 Micro, 300 f/4.5, 180w f/5.6 for 4x5
-----


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
Chris B1donator_silver
Member since 6-Sep-04
193 posts
29-May-05, 09:32 AM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail Chris%20B1 Click to send private message to Chris%20B1 Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
11. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #9
 
   I'll give it a try at both infinity anf hyperfocus distances and we'll see what type of result we get. Thanks

Chris B1


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jbloomdonator_gold
Member since 15-Jul-04
365 posts
29-May-05, 02:54 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail jbloom Click to send private message to jbloom Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
12. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #0
 
   Moderators, how about anchoring this post?

-- Jon


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jrpadmin
Charter Member
19618 posts
02-Jun-05, 03:57 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail jrp Click to send private message to jrp Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
13. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #12
 
   LAST EDITED ON 05-Jun-05 AT 10:43 AM (GMT 2)
 
It gives me great pleasure to inform you all that by deafening unanimous vote, the moderators team has asked us to anchor this thread. So here you are, well anchored.

More pleasure is to let you know Bill, that this post of yours is the runner up in the Tip of the Month Contest.

The problem I have now is the need to buy a nodal plate. Oh well!

Have a great time
JRP (At the north-eastern Mexican desert) Gallery, Brief Love Story, The Team
You value our community? Upgrade your membership.
Silver is 7 cents per day, you get benefits and can take pride in helping to support this your community.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2064 posts
04-Jun-05, 06:15 AM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to send private message to <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
14. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #13
 
   LAST EDITED ON 05-Jun-05 AT 10:51 AM (GMT 2) by jrp (admin)
 
JRP, thanks to you and to everyone else for your positive feedback.

Here is a revised diagram.


Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top
jrpadmin
Charter Member
19618 posts
17-Jul-05, 00:13 AM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail jrp Click to send private message to jrp Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
15. "RE: A method for locating the entrance pupil"
In response to message #14
 
   This award winning tip can now be found at the Resources in the Tips & Tricks section.
It's direct URL is this

Have a great time
JRP (At the north-eastern Mexican desert) Gallery, Brief Love Story, The Team
You value our community? Upgrade your membership.
Silver is 7 cents per day, you get benefits and can take pride in helping to support this your community.


  Alert | IP Printer-friendly page | Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Home | Conferences | Forums | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic