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Subject: "Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless SB8" Archived thread - Read only
 
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Troy
Member since 10-Dec-04
8 posts
30-Mar-05, 07:46 AM (GMT+2)
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"Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless SB8"
 
   Is it possible to fire the built in flash on my D70 during the exposure, while it is in commander mode to fire a remote SB800DX? I was under the impression that i could use both of them together in order to light the subject both from the front and also from whatever angle i place the SB800. However, I haven't been able to get the onboard flash to contribute to the exposure.

Am i just missing the setting for this, or is it not possible?

Thanks,
Troy

PS - I hope this hasn't been asked several times before, i dug around a bit looking for it but couldn't find anything.

-----------------------
www.TroyJSmith.com


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless SB8 [View All] Troy 30-Mar-05 TOP
  RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless grmedhat1 30-Mar-05 1
     RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless Troy 30-Mar-05 2
         RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless grmedhat1 30-Mar-05 3
  RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless Troy 01-Apr-05 4
  RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 01-Apr-05 5
  RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless shipbuilder 01-Apr-05 6
     RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 01-Apr-05 7
     RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless Troy 02-Apr-05 8
         RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 02-Apr-05 9
         RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 02-Apr-05 10
             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless Troy 02-Apr-05 11
                 RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 02-Apr-05 12
                     RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless grmedhat1 02-Apr-05 15
                     RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 02-Apr-05 17
                 RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless blwdonator_silver 02-Apr-05 13
                     RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless grmedhat1 02-Apr-05 14
                         RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless blwdonator_silver 02-Apr-05 16
                             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 02-Apr-05 18
                                 RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless blwdonator_silver 04-Apr-05 19
                                     RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless stainzboyD70 04-Apr-05 20
                                         RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless blwdonator_silver 04-Apr-05 21
                                         RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 04-Apr-05 22
                                             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless blwdonator_silver 05-Apr-05 27
                             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless grmedhat1 04-Apr-05 23
                                 RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 04-Apr-05 24
                                     RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless Troy 05-Apr-05 25
                                         RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 05-Apr-05 26
                                             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless crashmeisterdonator_silver 23-Apr-05 28
                                             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 23-Apr-05 29
                                             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless crashmeisterdonator_silver 23-Apr-05 30
                                             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless Bigcapedonator_gold 27-Apr-05 33
                                             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 27-Apr-05 34
                                             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless Bigcapedonator_gold 27-Apr-05 36
                             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless Bigcapedonator_gold 27-Apr-05 31
                                 RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless bclaffdonator_silver 27-Apr-05 35
             RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless Bigcapedonator_gold 27-Apr-05 32

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grmedhat1
Member since 24-Mar-02
1785 posts
30-Mar-05, 02:14 PM (GMT+2)
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1. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #0
 
   The built-in does not contribute to the exposure. It only provides a weak timing signal for the remote.


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Troy
Member since 10-Dec-04
8 posts
30-Mar-05, 04:47 PM (GMT+2)
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2. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #1
 
   Darn! I had assumed all along that i'd be able to use both. That's really a bummer. No way around it i guess huh? Seems like it would have been really easy for nikon to allow the use of both.

Thanks for the response.

Troy

-----------------------
www.TroyJSmith.com


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grmedhat1
Member since 24-Mar-02
1785 posts
30-Mar-05, 08:35 PM (GMT+2)
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3. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #2
 
   The only way around it would be to buy a second SB800 and use one of them as master OR use your existing SB800 as master and purchase a SB600 for the remote duty.


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Troy
Member since 10-Dec-04
8 posts
01-Apr-05, 00:58 AM (GMT+2)
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4. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #0
 
   It seems to me that this has got to be a software issue. The hardware is all there. I wonder if somebody could do a hacked firmware that would enable the on camera flash to be used along with the remote speedlights?

-----------------------
www.TroyJSmith.com


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bclaffdonator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2282 posts
01-Apr-05, 02:10 AM (GMT+2)
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5. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #0
 
   Troy,

I'm not expert in this area but I believe you could use an SU-4 with the SB-800; then both flashes would fully contribute. But you wouldn't get the full abilities of the SB-800.

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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shipbuilder
Member since 24-Mar-05
3 posts
01-Apr-05, 09:48 PM (GMT+2)
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6. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #0
 
   I have had success setting the S800 to SU4 mode, then using the pop-up on the D70 to fire it.

Shipbuilder


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bclaffdonator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2282 posts
01-Apr-05, 11:58 PM (GMT+2)
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7. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #6
 
   Yes, of course, no need for an SU-4; it's built-in!

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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Troy
Member since 10-Dec-04
8 posts
02-Apr-05, 00:13 AM (GMT+2)
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8. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #6
 
   Shipbuilder, by success do you mean that both the on camera flash and the SB800 were contributing to the exposure? And were you actually using an SU4 or just setting the SB800 to that mode? I don't really know much about what an SU4 is and i've never used one so please excuse my ignorance concerning it.

-----------------------
www.TroyJSmith.com


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bclaffdonator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2282 posts
02-Apr-05, 01:40 AM (GMT+2)
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9. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #8
 
   Troy,

I tried it. With the SB-800 in SU-4 mode the built-in flash definitely also contributes. See pages 84 and 85 of the SB-800 manual.

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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bclaffdonator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2282 posts
02-Apr-05, 02:12 AM (GMT+2)
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10. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #8
 
   Troy,

Here's a good example

The top shot is with the built-in flash alone, it's OK.
The bottom shot is with my SB-800 around the corner in SU-4 mode, Manual, 1/32nd power; clearly better!
Both are D70 18-70mm @18mm f/3.5 1/60th ISO200

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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Troy
Member since 10-Dec-04
8 posts
02-Apr-05, 02:37 AM (GMT+2)
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11. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #10
 
   Awesome, I got both flashes going, thanks so much for the help, you are my hero!

From what i can tell though, i have to set the power of both flashes manually, as well as the camera exposure. Is that correct? Not a terribly big deal since most times i'll be doing this sort of thing will be with a planned out shoot anyway. Still, it would be nice to have TTL metering with this lighting setup. I guess if i want that i'll have to buy another speedlight.

Anyway, thanks again bclaff and everyone else.

-----------------------
www.TroyJSmith.com


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bclaffdonator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2282 posts
02-Apr-05, 02:59 AM (GMT+2)
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12. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #11
 
   Troy,

You're welcome!

In that shot I used the built-in flash on Auto.
I only had to set the SB-800 manually.

BTW, this technique (SU-4 mode) will work with any camera's built-in flash, such as your Canon Powershot A70 (it works with my wife's Olympus C-765 Ultra Zoom).

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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grmedhat1
Member since 24-Mar-02
1785 posts
02-Apr-05, 02:57 PM (GMT+2)
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15. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #12
 
   Hi Bill,

Thanks for that info. I never tried that before assuming the pre-flash would cause the remote to fire prematurely. I'll give it a go later tonight.


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bclaffdonator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2282 posts
02-Apr-05, 10:23 PM (GMT+2)
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17. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #12
 
   FWIW, I reproduced the results in #10 using the SB-800 in SU-4 mode in Auto rather than Manual.
Came out great!

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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blwdonator_silver
Member since 18-Jun-04
1526 posts
02-Apr-05, 10:52 AM (GMT+2)
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13. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #11
 
   LAST EDITED ON 02-Apr-05 AT 10:57 AM (GMT 1)
 
From what i can tell though, i have to set the power of both flashes manually, as well as the camera exposure

You can use AA or A if the D70 has it (an SB-800 does); you can certainly use A mode on the SU-4 remote. AA mode is a lot less work than manual! You can't use iTTL or dTTL modes with the SU-4, because iTTL and dTTL use preflash to do their TTL metering. The preflash trips the SU-4 prematurely.

If you want TTL metering with digital bodies and remote flash, you HAVE to use CLS, meaning SB-800 or D70 as the commander and SB-800 or SB-600 as the remotes.

Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian


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grmedhat1
Member since 24-Mar-02
1785 posts
02-Apr-05, 02:33 PM (GMT+2)
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14. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #13
 
   Hi Brian,

I find this an interesting approach but I can't get mine to work with any accuracy.

You mentioned; "You can use AA or A if the D70 has it..." You said 'if' and I'm wondering which flash mode did you use on the D70?

You also mentioned AA mode is a lot less work. Setting AA mode on which flash? The D70?

Sorry for the question but I'm lost in the details.


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blwdonator_silver
Member since 18-Jun-04
1526 posts
02-Apr-05, 03:32 PM (GMT+2)
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16. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #14
 
   I don't have a D70, which is why I said "if it has it." When I got up this morning I realized that the D70 almost certainly does not have AA mode, since - duh - that would require an external sensor on the popup flash. (And a check of my D100 manual confirms that at least that camera does not.)

To explain:

I have an SB-800 and an SB-20 that I put on an SU-4 remote. To make the SB20+SU4 work correctly with a digital body, one has to suppress the preflash, whether this is from the D100/D70's internal flash or from an SB800 mounted on the shoe. Usually I need only one remote, so I put the SB800 on the shoe. To get the SB-800 not to preflash, I put it in AA mode, and set the SB-20 to A. Since I do this for real estate, usually in larger homes, the SB-20 is usually lighting the background while the SB-800 is lighting the foreground, and I am almost always using 15-18mm focal lengths. That means that the two flash sensors are looking at different areas, and are pretty much operating on independent exposure.

When I said that this (AA + A/SU4) is easier, I meant than doing it the manual way (ie setting manual flash power on each flash head). This scheme certainly works OK for real estate, where nothing is moving and I'm basically just trying to fill in the background of an otherwise underillumuinated area, but I can imagine that it's a hassle with other types of work where the flashes are really illuminating a common subject from different angles.

I only have the one CLS flash, but if I'm reading the mnauals right, this multiple flash arrangement is a lot easier in CLS mode where you seemingly just set up a commander and slaves and press the shutter release...

Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian


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bclaffdonator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2282 posts
02-Apr-05, 10:26 PM (GMT+2)
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18. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #16
 
   Brian,

Perhaps the SU-4 unit is more sensitive than the SU-4 mode of the SB-800 but I have had no problems with an SB-800 in SU-4 mode and the D70 built-in flash set for TTL.
If I had a second SB-800 that would be an interesting test!

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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blwdonator_silver
Member since 18-Jun-04
1526 posts
04-Apr-05, 02:49 AM (GMT+2)
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19. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #18
 
   IAt least on my samples, the actual SU-4 appears to also have somewhat better range than the SB-800 in SU-4 mode. The real SU-4 can go about 20 feet from the main flash reliably, while the SB-800 is more like 15 feet. (On the other hand, the difference might be just that the 800 is more powerful - I hadn't thought of that until right now.)

I know for absolute sure that I cannot use the D100's internal flash in dTTL mode with the SU-4. If the SU-4 trips at all, it does it on the preflash. If it doesn't trip on the preflash, it's because it's too far away and doesn't trip at all.

If I had a second SB-800, I probably wouldn't be wondering about the SU-4 at all! On the other hand, I actually can't justify another SB-800 right now, as I haven't had any real problems with my current arrangement EXCEPT one time when I was literally in a house full of mirrors. I gave up digital for that one and shot film with my FA and real off-the-film TTL + SU-4 for that one.

Brian... a bicoastal Nikonian


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stainzboyD70
Member since 2-Apr-05
3 posts
04-Apr-05, 08:59 AM (GMT+2)
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20. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #19
 
   hi,
does the SB-600 have a SU-4 function? I am also trying to use my built in speedlight (SB-600) with a remote flash simultaneously. Not proving easy, may be impossible.
thanks,
Dan


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blwdonator_silver
Member since 18-Jun-04
1526 posts
04-Apr-05, 01:00 PM (GMT+2)
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21. "RE: Getting built-in flash to fire on D70 with wireless"
In response to message #20