This is G o o g l e's cache of http://www.nikonians.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=4749&forum=DCForumID86 as retrieved on Aug 12, 2005 09:16:38 GMT.
G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
The page may have changed since that time. Click here for the current page without highlighting.
This cached page may reference images which are no longer available. Click here for the cached text only.
To link to or bookmark this page, use the following url: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:6qs26zds0xAJ:www.nikonians.org/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi%3Faz%3Dread_count%26om%3D4749%26forum%3DDCForumID86+discussions+%40+nikonians+%22reading+topic%22+site:nikonians.org+bclaff+mirror+myth&hl=en


Google is neither affiliated with the authors of this page nor responsible for its content.
These search terms have been highlighted: discussions nikonians reading topic bclaff mirror myth 


Discussions @ Nikonians

Subject: "Mirror Lock Up myth" Archived thread - Read only
 
  Previous Topic | Next Topic
Printer-friendly copy    
Conferences NIKON PRODUCTS FORUMS D70/D70s Users Group Topic #4749
Reading Topic #4749
bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2246 posts
08-Mar-05, 04:21 AM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to send private message to <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
"Mirror Lock Up myth"
 
   At the tail end of this recent post 3rd party firmware? was an exchange regarding Mirror Lock Up (MLU) that got me to thinking.
I don't think that the tests presented in that post are entirely valid because the aperture was varied and so the effects seen might be attributed to changes in the sharpness of the lens due to aperture.

I conducted a test varying shutter speed and brightness but not aperture. I took 25 photos at each 1/3EV interval from 1/400th to 5/8th of the same backlit target varying the brightness of the backlighting. All images were taken at ISO 1600 and underexposed almost 3 stops (to test faster shutter speeds). The images were taken with a 105mm lens at f/4 and a bellows setup for slightly better than 1:1. At ISO 1600 and f/4 the images aren't as sharp as they could be but that is not the purpose of the test. The target is a pair or translucent (black lines) and transparent (red lines) rulers. There is a very small gap between the rulers. Obviously, I used a sturdy tripod and the self timer.

The following image contains 25 160x160 100% crops from these images. The crops were taken from raw data loaded with Adobe Camera Raw using no sharpening and no other adjustments (except that they were all loaded at the same white point).

I see no evidence of any camera movement at any of the shutter speeds.
Clearly the mirror movement is well dampened.
IMHO, there is no need for mirror lockup with this camera.

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


  Printer-friendly page | Top

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Mirror Lock Up myth Tony_Jeffreedonator_silver 08-Mar-05 1
  RE: Mirror Lock Up myth jsalcedodonator_gold 08-Mar-05 2
  RE: Mirror Lock Up myth nkcllewisdonator_gold 08-Mar-05 3
     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bobjdonator_gold 08-Mar-05 4
         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth SzennyBoydonator_silver 08-Mar-05 6
         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 08-Mar-05 8
             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bobjdonator_gold 08-Mar-05 9
     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 08-Mar-05 5
         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth matthew savilledonator_silver 08-Mar-05 7
  RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 08-Mar-05 10
     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bobjdonator_gold 08-Mar-05 11
     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth NonEx 09-Mar-05 12
         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth rleibfreid 09-Mar-05 13
             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 09-Mar-05 15
         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 09-Mar-05 14
             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth NonEx 09-Mar-05 16
                 RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 09-Mar-05 17
                     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth BJNichollsdonator_silver 09-Mar-05 18
                     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth jsalcedodonator_gold 09-Mar-05 19
                         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 09-Mar-05 21
                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth jsalcedodonator_gold 09-Mar-05 24
                 RE: Mirror Lock Up myth N80moderator 09-Mar-05 20
                     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 09-Mar-05 23
                         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth N80moderator 09-Mar-05 26
                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 09-Mar-05 28
                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth twantodonator_silver 10-Mar-05 60
                         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth Tony_Jeffreedonator_silver 09-Mar-05 30
                     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth Tony_Jeffreedonator_silver 09-Mar-05 29
                         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth N80moderator 09-Mar-05 31
                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth Tony_Jeffreedonator_silver 09-Mar-05 33
                         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth nkcllewisdonator_gold 09-Mar-05 32
                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth Tony_Jeffreedonator_silver 09-Mar-05 35
                                 RE: Mirror Lock Up myth nkcllewisdonator_gold 09-Mar-05 37
                                     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth Tony_Jeffreedonator_silver 09-Mar-05 39
                                         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth nkcllewisdonator_gold 09-Mar-05 42
                                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth Tony_Jeffreedonator_silver 09-Mar-05 43
                                             Mirror Lock Up - myth? - NOT Tony_Jeffreedonator_silver 10-Mar-05 51
                                             RE: Mirror Lock Up - myth? - SO bclaff</b>donator_silver 10-Mar-05 52
                                             RE: Mirror Lock Up - myth? - SO Tony_Jeffreedonator_silver 10-Mar-05 54
                                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 10-Mar-05 44
                                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth nkcllewisdonator_gold 10-Mar-05 47
                                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 10-Mar-05 48
                                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bobjdonator_gold 10-Mar-05 49
                                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth nkcllewisdonator_gold 10-Mar-05 56
                                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth nkcllewisdonator_gold 10-Mar-05 57
                                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth Tony_Jeffreedonator_silver 10-Mar-05 50
     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth nkcllewisdonator_gold 09-Mar-05 22
         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 09-Mar-05 25
             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth nkcllewisdonator_gold 09-Mar-05 27
  RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 09-Mar-05 34
     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth jbeardonator_silver 09-Mar-05 36
         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth N80moderator 09-Mar-05 38
         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 09-Mar-05 40
             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth jbeardonator_silver 09-Mar-05 41
                 RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 10-Mar-05 45
                     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth jsalcedodonator_gold 10-Mar-05 46
                     RE: Mirror Lock Up myth jbeardonator_silver 10-Mar-05 53
                         RE: Mirror Lock Up myth jsalcedodonator_gold 10-Mar-05 55
                             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth N80moderator 10-Mar-05 58
             RE: Mirror Lock Up myth nkcllewisdonator_gold 14-Mar-05 61
                 RE: Mirror Lock Up myth bclaff</b>donator_silver 14-Mar-05 62
  RE: Mirror Lock Up myth DavidHdonator_silver 10-Mar-05 59

Home | Conferences | Forums | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic
Tony_Jeffreedonator_silver
Member since 13-Oct-04
627 posts
08-Mar-05, 12:51 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail Tony_Jeffree Click to send private message to Tony_Jeffree Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
1. "RE: Mirror Lock Up myth"
In response to message #0
 
   That looks pretty convincing - as you say, the results I got could well be attributable to changes in lens performance with aperture. Thanks for taking the trouble to set that up!

Regards,
Tony
Nikonians gallery


  Printer-friendly page | Top
jsalcedodonator_gold
Member since 24-Jun-04
494 posts
08-Mar-05, 01:05 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail jsalcedo Click to send private message to jsalcedo Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
2. "RE: Mirror Lock Up myth"
In response to message #0
 
   Thanks Bill! Nothing like real data to prove a point!
I really appreciate your effort.
Best regards,

Jose Salcedo
http://homepage.mac.com/ja_person/album/


  Printer-friendly page | Top
nkcllewisdonator_gold
Charter Member
2633 posts
08-Mar-05, 03:27 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail nkcllewis Click to send private message to nkcllewis Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
3. "RE: Mirror Lock Up myth"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON 08-Mar-05 AT 03:32 PM (GMT 1)
 
>
>I see no evidence of any camera movement at any of the
>shutter speeds.
>Clearly the mirror movement is well dampened.
>IMHO, there is no need for mirror lockup with this camera.
>
>Bill


Bill, I find all your images to be sligtly blurry and lacking in sufficient contrast for me to detect differences. I always enjoy seeing MLU tests because I want to be convinced that it is just a myth. Your test, with all due respect, is not a myth buster, yet.

To truely test MLU, again IMHO, you need to shoot a contrasty image at asa 200 for clarity's sake, with all things being equal, on a cement floor, good tripod, etc, and then compare just a few images, say from 1/250 a second to 1 second. You should start to see image degradation around 1/15 second compared to your 1/250.

Another way to test this is to shoot the exact same target, all things being equal, with a D100 with MLU and a D70 without MLU at slower shutter speeds starting from 1/60 on down to 1 second.

I argue that MLU isn't a myth. I have seen a visible "big" difference with macro shots taken with my N80 and then the exact same image taken with my F5 on just a 4x6 print. I argue that if MLU was just a myth, Nikon wouldn't have bothered putting it into all the latest pro D series bodies, the D100, FM2a and FM3a and the F5 and F6. IMHO, Nikon left MLU off all the amateur AF film bodies, N90s, F100 and the D70 because of the target audience for those camera bodies.

Thanks again,

Kent
Edited to add that most people don't understand or appreciate MLU


  Printer-friendly page | Top
bobjdonator_gold
Charter Member
11669 posts
08-Mar-05, 04:47 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail bobj Click to send private message to bobj Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
4. "RE: Mirror Lock Up myth"
In response to message #3
 
   Kent,
They may seem slightly blurry, but this is because what you are seeing are 100% views of each image -- pixel per pixel. In that light, they are actually all quite sharp. Also, neither the D70 nor the D100 has mirror lockup.

Bill,
Maybe I missed it, but what focal length were these images taken at. Kent is right that to truly see any difference you need optical high magnification in camera so that any vibration will also be magnified. At "normal" focal lengths and reproduction ratios mirror lockup definitely isn't needed. Its use is most often touted for macro and long telephotowork, especially from about 1/15 to 1/4 (or 1/30 down to 1/2 second if you want to be more picky). At shorter shutter speeds you freeze the action enough to not see much vibration. At longer shutter speeds the vibration occurs over a ahort enough percentage of the exposure to be of minimal significance in the overall sharpness.

I belive mirror lockup still has a place, but a diminishing one. Newer bodies dampen the mirror vibration much better than they once did. Under critical conditions thbough, it can still have an impact (and me with no body that has it, at least until my D2x gets here).


Bob Johnson - Earthbound Light - Nikonians Gallery
Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
Weekly Phototips and Articles - Lots of images


  Printer-friendly page | Top
SzennyBoydonator_silver
Member since 28-Jan-02
2907 posts
08-Mar-05, 05:19 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail SzennyBoy Click to send private message to SzennyBoy Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
6. "RE: Mirror Lock Up myth"
In response to message #4
 
   Bob,
The D100 does not have MLU but does have the Anti-Mirror Shock option which lifts the mirror a couple of seconds before triggering the shutter (similar to the D1 series bodies). This option is not available on the D70 body.

Szen LRPS... A London Nikonian
More about me in My Profile & My Gallery


  Printer-friendly page | Top
bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2246 posts
08-Mar-05, 05:29 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to send private message to <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
8. "RE: Mirror Lock Up myth"
In response to message #4
 
   Bob,

Yeah, you did miss it
I used a 105mm lens on a bellows achieving a 1.2:1 ratio.
(The full frame is about .81"x.54")

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


  Printer-friendly page | Top
bobjdonator_gold
Charter Member
11669 posts
08-Mar-05, 06:32 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail bobj Click to send private message to bobj Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
9. "RE: Mirror Lock Up myth"
In response to message #8
 
   I stand corrected. Nice results then!


Bob Johnson - Earthbound Light - Nikonians Gallery
Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
Weekly Phototips and Articles - Lots of images


  Printer-friendly page | Top
bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2246 posts
08-Mar-05, 04:59 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to send private message to <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
5. "RE: Mirror Lock Up myth"
In response to message #3
 
   Kent,

You may be right; but for now I'm convinced.

I knew (and stated) up front that I didn't have enough illumination with this setup to do ISO 200 and would have to do ISO 1600. The images are soft but I think quite sufficient for comparitive purposes. BTW, this is on a concrete floor with a good tripod.

Perhaps in the future I can setup better illumination and perform an ISO 200 test over the range you suggested.

I'm sorry to say that I think any difference you ever saw on a 4x6 print must have been something other than MLU. In any case, the N80 and F5 don't have the same mirror damping system as the D70.

I didn't intend to make a blanket statement about MLU in general; since this is the D70 forum I meant specifically that MLU is not needed on a D70. It is clearly needed on some other bodies.

The fact the Nikon offers MLU on many other bodies can mean a number of things. Those bodies might not have such a good mirror damping system so they require MLU. Also, it might be provided for marketing reasons to satisfy a perceived need and to differentiate the "pro" bodies from the "amateur" bodies.

It would be interesting to see the exact same exposure and shot with and without MLU; but I don't currently have access to a digital body with MLU.

Respectfully,
Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


  Printer-friendly page | Top
matthew savilledonator_silver
Member since 23-Mar-04
454 posts
08-Mar-05, 05:23 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail matthew%20saville Click to send private message to matthew%20saville Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list Click to send message via AOL IM  
7. "RE: Mirror Lock Up myth"
In response to message #5
 
   ...And then there's my D70, which recently started to give me MLU almost every time I press apeture preview. Hmmmm. That and the auto-rotate stopped working. Must have been that cold weather shoot?

-matt-

No camera tells you how to compose or when to release the shutter. ...Which is why I always have so much fun!


  Printer-friendly page | Top
bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2246 posts
08-Mar-05, 10:57 PM (GMT+2)
Click to EMail <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to send private message to <b style=bclaff"> </b>Click to view user profileClick to add this user to your buddy list  
10. "RE: Mirror Lock Up myth"
In response to message #0
 
   For "fun" I took another set of shots using a narrower exposure range suggested by bobj; from 1/30th to 1 second in 1/3EV steps. This allowed me to use f/8 instead of f/4 and ISO 400 rather than ISO 1600. So the 200x200 100% crops are sharper than the original post.

I still see no degradation that I can attribute to the lack of MLU.

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


  Printer-friendly page | Top
bobj