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Subject: "A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"     Previous Topic | Next Topic
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Conferences NIKON PRODUCTS FORUMS D70 Users Group Topic #7071
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bclaff</b>donator_silver
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04-Aug-05, 05:51 AM (GMT+2)
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"A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
 
   Judging sharpness is very subjective.
Having an objective way to measure relative sharpness without sophisticated equipment is quite valuable.
The technique I will describe and demonstrate depends on the behavior of point spread and is distantly related to Modulus Transfer Function (MTF).
The precise mathematical foundation is beyond the scope of this thread and is not important to the application of the technique.

To conduct measurements it is best to use a high contrast black and white image.
The image should have numerous sharp edges but most lines should not be so thin as to exceed the resolution of the camera.
(We are primarily measuring sharpness, not resolution.)
I used a photocopier test chart mounted on a piece of foamcore.

Keeping lighting constant take a series of images of the test chart.
Vary only one parameter in your experiment.
I varied the distance from the film plane of the camera to the target.

In PhotoShop (or your program of choice) measure the standard deviation of the luminance channel of a selected area that is consistent from image to image.
The ideal selection has about equal amounts of black and white.
I chose a set of resolution bars on my test chart.

The higher the standard deviation; the sharper the image.

Here's my experiment:
I used my D70 and 50mm f/1.8 @f/1.8 and focused using AF at a certain distance (my secret for now).
Then I set the camera to MF and without changing the focus took 31 images at 1mm intervals from 440mm to 470mm distance to the target.

Here are the results of the entire test range.

(I am actually surprised at how smooth the data turned out.)

But does it measure what we're after?
Here are the results zoomed in on the center of the test range.
And directly below are 100% crops from the corresponding test targets.

I think the answer is definitely "yes", this measure works.
BTW, the crop was choosen because each horizonal black/white lines is about one pixel; so the camera and lens do seem to resolve at the maximum expected resoltion.
Also, the crops don't look very white due to my halogen illuminant and slight underexposure.

One way to use this result is to tune our choice of the Circle Of Confusion (COC) value used in computing Depth Of Field (DOF).
If you're happy with 450-459mm then .033mm is for you.
Prefer 451-458mm? Then .025mm COC is what you want.
Only satisfied with 452-457mm, then you need to go down to a COC of .015mm

Of course this test is wide open at f/1.8.
Tests stopped down should prove interesting too.
Perhaps I'll see improved sharpness at the edges of the computed DOF.

So far I have tested three different lenses at a variety of distances and the technique holds up.
BTW, which distance do you think the AF sensor picked?
(Hint, it was between 447 and 462mm)


Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness peter_s 04-Aug-05 1
     RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness AQS1974donator_silver 04-Aug-05 2
         RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness peter_s 04-Aug-05 3
             RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness martstokes 04-Aug-05 4
                 RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness martstokes 05-Aug-05 5
                     RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness bclaff</b>donator_silver 05-Aug-05 6
                     RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness bclaff</b>donator_silver 05-Aug-05 8
                         RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness peter_s 05-Aug-05 15
                             RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness bclaff</b>donator_silver 05-Aug-05 20
                                 RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness peter_s 05-Aug-05 25
  RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness bclaff</b>donator_silver 05-Aug-05 7
     RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness Penforhire 05-Aug-05 9
         RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness bclaff</b>donator_silver 05-Aug-05 10
  RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness mudsharkdonator_silver 05-Aug-05 11
     RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness bclaff</b>donator_silver 05-Aug-05 13
         RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness mudsharkdonator_silver 05-Aug-05 14
  RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness bclaff</b>donator_silver 05-Aug-05 12
     RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness martstokes 05-Aug-05 16
         RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness peter_s 05-Aug-05 17
             RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness martstokes 05-Aug-05 18
                 RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness peter_s 05-Aug-05 19
                     RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness DHuryndonator_silver 05-Aug-05 22
                 RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness bclaff</b>donator_silver 05-Aug-05 21
                     RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness peter_s 05-Aug-05 23
                         RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness martstokes 05-Aug-05 24
                             RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness peter_s 05-Aug-05 26

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peter_s
Member since 6-Jan-05
65 posts
04-Aug-05, 09:24 AM (GMT+2)
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1. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #0
 
   Hi Bill,
great work!!!!, I think I have to do it also, but befor I'll buy a backup body, because of GLOD......

if it would be my D70 before adjusting the AF it would be about 447mm.
Right??

I made focus-tests using a focus-chart with diffferent lenses.It was evident that there was a slight front-focus. After this I adjusted the AF! The effect is much more pronounced with a 85/1.4 than with 50/1.8, and the 50/1.8 shows more effect as short 4.5 zooms...
Now the AF is dead on and I can use the 85/1.4 *WIDE OPEN*!!!

BTW, the 18-70 should be nearly ok within the DOF,is it?
But it's really more difficult to make the tests with a 4.5 lens....

regards
peter


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AQS1974donator_silver
Member since 15-Feb-05
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04-Aug-05, 10:04 AM (GMT+2)
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2. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #1
 
   I think AF was on 452

Alex

from Pacific Northwest USA
"The End of the Oregon Trail"

My Gallery at Nikonians


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peter_s
Member since 6-Jan-05
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04-Aug-05, 10:50 AM (GMT+2)
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3. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #2
 
   Alex,
ok, 447 is a bit too extrem, mine was at the limit of DOF (frontfocus),ok about 452......
peter


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martstokes
Member since 7-Apr-05
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04-Aug-05, 11:59 AM (GMT+2)
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4. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #3
 
   453, a bit of sharpness before, more sharpness behind. Oh, go on Bill, tell us!

Martin Stokes
Telford
England

It's all very well in practice, but how's it going to work in theory?


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martstokes
Member since 7-Apr-05
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05-Aug-05, 01:24 AM (GMT+2)
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5. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #4
 
   By the way Bill (sorry to double post, it will only let you edit within 720 minutes of the original) you must have the patience of a Saint to perform tests like this. Great stuff, very interesting. A sharpness/focus test performed one photo at a time instead of examining a single photo, deriving a method to empirically measure the sharpness, very good! And the crops support the data, to my eye anyway.

Of course you have introduced another level of supporting focus paranoia (as well as supporting genuine concerns of course).

No more subjective statements such as "I think the eyes look soft, but the ears seem tack sharp".

Martin Stokes
Telford
England

It's all very well in practice, but how's it going to work in theory?


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bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
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05-Aug-05, 02:05 AM (GMT+2)
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6. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #5
 
   Martin,

Thanks for the compliment, although some might say complusive rather than patient!
I do try to be objective in the statements I make and to do so I prefer to have first hand experience/proof of what I'm saying.

Regards,
Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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bclaff</b>donator_silver
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05-Aug-05, 02:26 AM (GMT+2)
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8. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #5
 
   Martin,

Of course you have introduced another level of supporting focus paranoia (as well as supporting genuine concerns of course).

Yes, I believe this testing methodology is very sensitive and could be a useful tool in quantifying AF Sensor accuracy.
I also think it's so sensitive that it's tempting to expect too much.

FWIW, after testing three lenses at various distances; it seems that AF Sensor accuracy is a function of the lens and distance to subject, not just the body.

I'll try to say more when what I can say is more than speculation.

REgards,
Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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peter_s
Member since 6-Jan-05
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05-Aug-05, 09:01 AM (GMT+2)
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15. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #8
 
   hi Bill,
I made "similar" tests with different lenses using a focus chart.
I found also slight variations of the focus point.
In comparison to the kit lens, the 50/1.8 and the 85/1.4 are focusing more in the front. The kit lens seemed to be just fine with the original adjustment.
I encountered this problem during a comparison of the TOKINA 12-24 with the kit lens at 18 and 24mm. The Tokina had ad infinite always front focus where it was ok at about 1m..2m.

After all the tests at infinite and using the focus chart I decided to adjust the AF sensors to fit the 85/1.4 and 50/1.8 in the near field.
Now the kit lens has a very little bit back focus, but is in the DOF.
Ad infinite everything seems to be fine.
Even my 70-300 @ 300mm wide open delivers now sharp pics, and the 85/1.4 at 1.4 is now really stunning. I couldn't use both lenses, the 50/1.8 and the Tokina wide open before the adjustment.

Before I saw your post I thought it's due to the precision of the tests using a foucus chart, but after you found similar results I'm sure there something behind it.
But can you explain this?????
Normally the AF "should" exactly find the focus with any lens and it "should" never be a question of the lens!!!
Or is it something with "telecentric" and "not telecentric"???

Overall, after a lot of "real photo test" with the new adjustment I'm sure it's better now. And additionally I get what I see in the viewfinder "WYSIWYG".


regards
peter


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bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
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05-Aug-05, 01:12 PM (GMT+2)
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20. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #15
 
   Peter,

We're measuring sharpness at the image sensor in these tests.
Whereas AF is done at the AF sensor.
Due to mechanical tolerances etc. this is not quite the same thing.
IMO this explains most of the difference.

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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peter_s
Member since 6-Jan-05
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25. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #20
 
   Bill,
yes, I totally agree with you!

If you look how this AF of the D70 works (I'm sure you already know...
but here is a link: http://leongoodman.com/sergei/backfocus.htm)
than it's clear that this two moving mirrors could have some influence.
But nevertheless I have the impression that there is a tendency at differnet lenses. But I'm not sure. And I don't understand this.
Maybe I have to perform a statistical test and evaluate with appropriate tools to be sure what's going on.

But whatabout your results, the comparison between the 50 and the kit lens, it's going in the same direction, is it??

regards
peter


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bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
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05-Aug-05, 02:16 AM (GMT+2)
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7. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #0
 
   Regrding the original post:
the crop was choosen because each horizonal black/white lines is about one pixel
Actually each line is about two pixels, not one.

On further reflection I think minimizing the Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) is slightly superior to maximizing the Standard Deviation.
That's because the SNR "adjusts" for slight variations in intensity.

Also, (for geeks who lurk), these computations ought to be done in linear Analog to Digital Units (ADUs).
But since the transform from linear to perceptual is non-decreasing the inequality still holds.

I thought Nikonians might be interested in some results for the "kit" lens.
I made the distance about the same but at f/4.5 versus f/1.8 there is greater Depeth Of Field (DOF).
So I made the range of distances twice as wide and with a step is 2mm rather than 1mm.
I'm only showing the center portion of the data.


Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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Penforhire
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9. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #7
 
   Another really interesting test!

So is the asymmetry about the central inflection point in your charts indicative of measurement error or is something more systematic at work?

I know depth of field is not symmetrical, depending on distance, so is the reduced slope after the central point indicating this (more DOF after the point of focus)? If so, I suspect someone smarter than I am could estimate your test distance based on the measured assymetry of your curve.


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bclaff</b>donator_silver
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10. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #9
 
   Eric,

The vertical axis has no meaning except that lower is better.
(Especially because we're using perceptual rather than linear data.)

Because the vertical axis has no real meaning there can be no "measurement of error".
But you can say, in a relative way, that one point is sharper than another.
(Just not how much sharper.)

Yes, because of the way Depth Of Field (DOF) works you would expect the asymmetry to mimick the DOF.

The test distance is right on the bottom in mm
(If it weren't there you would not be able to figure it out.)

Regards,
Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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mudsharkdonator_silver
Member since 8-Jun-04
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05-Aug-05, 05:33 AM (GMT+2)
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11. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #0
 
   Bill,

You have emerged as the technical god of the D70--always tinkering behind the scenes and providing us with the valuable fruits of your labor!!!

Thanks again for the help you provided me with my now-debunked hot pixel problem! It was a big relief to know I was only clipping the red with my long IR exposures.

Now put down your keyboard and go take some pictures ya big goof!

mud

(Bill)


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bclaff</b>donator_silver
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05-Aug-05, 06:27 AM (GMT+2)
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13. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #11
 
   Bill,


"Life is Just a Bowl of Cherry Tomatoes".
Taken just now, as per your request.
They are home grown; I'm a gardener too!

(D70 50mm f/1.8D f/2.2 1/60s ISO200 built-in flash)

Now I think sleep is in order.

Good Night!
Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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mudsharkdonator_silver
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05-Aug-05, 06:32 AM (GMT+2)
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14. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #13
 
   I Love it!!!

You're a class act, Bill!

Bill


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bclaff</b>donator_silver
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12. "RE: A Technqiue for Measuring Relative Sharpness"
In response to message #0