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Subject: "Polarizer reducing dynamic range example" Archived thread - Read only
 
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bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
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27-Apr-05, 04:06 AM (GMT+2)
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"Polarizer reducing dynamic range example"
 
   Proof that, at least this situation, a circular polarizer reduces dynamic range; rather than simply darkening the image uniformly as a Neutral Density (ND) filter would do.
I believe this is a typical result.

Two shots, seconds apart; top without polarizer, bottom with polarizer.
(D70 with 18-70mm @18mm f/7.1 1/400s and 1/100s respectively)
Shown resized but otherwise unprocessed with Photoshop CS Luminosity histograms to the right of each image.
The histograms are highlighted to show the dynamic range used.
No polarizer uses levels 7 to 234; 228 levels.
With polarizer uses levels 6 to 216; 211 levels.
With polarizer uses about 1/3EV less dynamic range in this case.
(I examined the linear raw data, not shown, to compute this.)
Also note that the right hand side of the luminance is "better behaved" with the polarizer.


Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example bobjdonator_gold 27-Apr-05 1
     RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example bclaff</b>donator_silver 27-Apr-05 2
         RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example bobjdonator_gold 27-Apr-05 3
             RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example GRE_D70 27-Apr-05 4
                 RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example bobjdonator_gold 27-Apr-05 7
  RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example jbloomdonator_gold 27-Apr-05 5
     RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example bclaff</b>donator_silver 27-Apr-05 6
  RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example Len Shepherddonator_silver 27-Apr-05 8
  RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example bclaff</b>donator_silver 29-Apr-05 9

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bobjdonator_gold
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27-Apr-05, 04:44 AM (GMT+2)
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1. "RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example"
In response to message #0
 
   The polarizer didn't so much reduce the dynamic range, at least not in any general sense. It obviously did reduced some of the reflections off the water though.


Bob Johnson - Earthbound Light - Nikonians Gallery
Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
Weekly Phototips and Articles - Lots of images


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bclaff</b>donator_silver
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27-Apr-05, 06:41 AM (GMT+2)
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2. "RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example"
In response to message #1
 
   Bob,

Gee, the number of levels required for the image dropped from 228 to 211; that seems like less dynamic range to me!
(The linear range dropped from 2273 to 1799 too.)

Why don't you agree that this represents a reduction in the dynamic range?

Bill

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bobjdonator_gold
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27-Apr-05, 07:16 AM (GMT+2)
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3. "RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example"
In response to message #2
 
   It's caused by the loss of the bright white area on the water. In other words, the polarizer reduced the reflections, something a polarizer is well known to do. Use a scene without reflections to be cut and see if you get a similar decrease of dynamic range. I doubt you will.

As I say, it won't reduce dynamic range in any general sense, but only if there are reflections to be cut.

There is one other case I can think of though. Since a polarizer costs you a couple of stops, you could "reduce dynamic range" merely by thereby underexposing an image.


Bob Johnson - Earthbound Light - Nikonians Gallery
Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
Weekly Phototips and Articles - Lots of images


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GRE_D70
Member since 6-May-04
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27-Apr-05, 11:39 AM (GMT+2)
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4. "RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example"
In response to message #3
 
   Bob, Bill,

Can one of you do an experiment for me and tell me what the effect on non-polarized light is with a polarizing filter in terms of exposure stops. Basically the metered light coming off a uniform surface with and without the filter. I'm curious to know what the effect of a polarizing filter is when used in conjunction with a non-grad ND.

Regards

Guy


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bobjdonator_gold
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7. "RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example"
In response to message #4
 
   A polarizer cuts all light transmission to an extent. It cuts transmission of light polarized at an angle other than what it is set to even more. Thus, if one assumes that no light is polarized, everything would be cut by same amount, exactly the same as a solid ND would do.


Bob Johnson - Earthbound Light - Nikonians Gallery
Nature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond
Weekly Phototips and Articles - Lots of images


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jbloomdonator_gold
Member since 15-Jul-04
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27-Apr-05, 04:05 PM (GMT+2)
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5. "RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example"
In response to message #0
 
   Since the function of the polarizer in this case is to reduce the intensity of the brightest parts of this image (the reflections) more than the darker parts, a reduction in the dynamic range of the image is the expected result. If you used the polarizer on an image where the brightest parts of the image were not polarized light, there would be no reduction in dynamic range.

I guess the point you're trying to make is that a polarizer can help you keep from blowing out the highlights when those highlights are polarized light, like reflections. That's worth keeping in mind.

-- Jon


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bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
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27-Apr-05, 06:47 PM (GMT+2)
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6. "RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example"
In response to message #5
 
   Jon,

Yes!
And the big difference in this example is the sky.
The sky was reduced in intensity more so than the rest of the picture; resulting in a smaller dynamic range.
You can see how the big spikey right hand side of the histogram was tamed.

It is true that glare was reduced on the water and this changed the left hand side of the histogram, giving it more definition; but that's a distraction (with no effect of the dynamic range) and not the point of this example.

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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Len Shepherddonator_silver
Member since 9-Mar-03
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27-Apr-05, 11:18 PM (GMT+2)
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8. "RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example"
In response to message #0
 
   If you look at the 2 pictures in detail you will see the Pol does 2 things.

The reflections without the Pol are strongly polarized (and degrade the image IMO).

With the Pol the Pol light from the reflections (and the sky) is taken out.
This adds detail particularly in the water reflections and there is better saturation.
There are also fewer highlights getting through the filter so the luminosity mix is changed.

Strongly pol light often also prevents foliage colours getting through.
You can see much more green detail on the trees above the far bank with the Pol in place - and IMO this helps make the pol image look better.

Whether or not the Pol reduces dynamic range is IMO a diversion.

The main point to me is in this example the Pol produces a much better picture.
Photography IMO is much more about making better pictures than luminosity readouts.

Len Shepherd.


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bclaff</b>donator_silver
Member since 26-Oct-04
2243 posts
29-Apr-05, 02:45 AM (GMT+2)
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9. "RE: Polarizer reducing dynamic range example"
In response to message #0
 
   Bill,

Dope slap

Bob (and Len) were right. The dynamic range is not reduced.
That would have required that 100% of the brightest portion of the unpolarzied image to have been composed of polarized light.
(The high end was knocked down considerably, but not entirely.)

This also jives with Circular polarizer transmittance which was inspired by Guy in post#4.

The photo with polarizer appeared to have a 1/3EV drop in dynamic range.
But that was just the difference between the polarizer transmittance penalty of 1 2/3EV and the exposure difference of 2EV.

Thanks for pushing me guys, believe it or not I'm here to learn too!

Bill

Visit me, info and galleries at: Nikon Photos and Information


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