Welcome to the final page of Science, Religion and the movie Contact. These are the final entries of a discussion that has lasted for 2 years. If you have put an entry on this site then you are invited to summarize your thoughts about this discussion. You will need to e-mail your entry to me so that I can add it to this page. Keep in mind, this discussion is over, so don't try to solicit a response or start a debate. This page is for your final statement, so please feel free to send one to me.
Several people added their final thoughts on the June through July page. I have copied some of them to this page but there is more to be read there.
My sincerest thanks to all that have participated on this site.
In my original final entry (at the bottom of this page), I made the comment about a powerful entry made by Christian Johnson. Well, Christian has sent me a very surprising final entry that is now the first entry on this page. I think it is important to place this entry into context by reading some of his other entries, so here is a list of links that will take you to those entries. If you go to one of those entries just hit the back button on your browser to come back here. I have modified my entry in response to this one and a few others.
Keith astrokeith@yahoo.com
And now his final entry:
Some of you may recognize me as the evolution spoutin'-fist shakin'-faith hatin'-agnostic from previous posts. Due to a curious twist of fate, during the period of time that I was adding posts to this web site about a year and a half ago, an event occurred in my life which seemed to bolster my case against faith, prayer, and a personal loving God. The event was actually an agonizing tragedy during which my wife and I lost, due to premature birth, our twin sons David and Dustin. I entered a post describing this event just days after it occurred. My main point of the post was that although hundreds of people had prayed for God to save David and Dustin, they still died. So what was the point of prayer at all, I asked. God didn't save my sons. Science didn't save my sons either, but at least it gave them a fighting chance and added two weeks to Dustin's short life.
At the time that my wife became pregnant with the twins, we had already been married five years. These were not exactly five years of marital bliss. In fact, even though we had two sons (Corey and Zack) already, we were nearly ready to call the whole marriage off. Our lives were hell and although we did our best to keep hostilities under the surface of every day life I think the kids still felt the tension.
After we lost the twins, and after my last post on this page, things eventually settled down again and I picked up where I had left off on my search for "truth". Lying in bed one night, in the twilight realm between sleep and wakefulness, I asked myself a simple question: "What is the most important question to ask?" I pondered this as I began to dose when BAM!... the answer hit me. The most important question to ask is: "Who am I?"
"Who am I?" I don't mean who is Christian, where was he born and what is his favorite flavor of ice cream. I mean what is the nature of this awareness within me. "WHO AM I?" What is this consciousness that I am using right now. In some way which I can't really explain here, the pursuit of this basic question, the most basic of all questions, led me back toward a new understanding of God. I began to realize that my previous conception of God was narrow and limited by my prejudices. I had created my own god made of straw and then denied that it could exist.
If we say that God does not exist what we are really saying is that our conception of God does not exist. God transcends our dogmatic, human, churchy ideas. You cannot bottle up God an carry him around under your arm. But if God exists how can I know Him? I don't want to just "believe", I want to know. But then again why should I want to know God? What had God done for me? One night with these ideas spinning in my mind I asked God to help me to desire to know him... to desire to love him. The night after I prayed this prayer, my wife and I went out to dinner together. After eating we sat in the car in the parking lot of the restaurant and began to talk about things. My wife brought up how much happier our marriage had been lately. It was true, we really had been enjoying our lives together. I had never known that marriage could be so sweet. To top it off my wife was expecting again and this time the pregnancy was going fine. She pointed out how somehow the tragedy that we had shared had brought us together. It had brought our whole family together. As she explained this, something happened inside of me. It was as if curtains were lifting to reveal a masterful plan which came to completion even as I sat there in the car. All the pieces of the last year and a half began falling into place with an indescribable perfection.
An upwelling of joy spread through me. I understood. I understood it all. I understood why the twins, David and Dustin had died. I understood why they suffered and why we had to suffer with them. I understood why all those prayers were not answered. It was all perfect and it was all good. It all came together with such perfection. I cannot explain what it was like. Perfect. Loving. Cosmic.
All those prayers for the twins months earlier had not been answered so that my prayer the night before COULD be answered. He had answered my prayer and had given me a reason to desire to know and a reason to love Him. You really have to think about that one.
In the search for "truth" it is easy to rely solely on physical evidence. But physical evidence is useless unless it is internalized and brought under the scrutiny of your consciousness. This is done through your five senses. You hear a lecture... watch a bird fly... read a book... listen to a concerto. It all ends up "inside" of you via your translating senses. Once it's inside, you scrutinize and theorize and postulate and formulate ideas and then you try to package it all up in words so you can write it down for someone else to read. So much is lost in the translation!
God cannot be described. The Truth cannot be spoken of. Peace, joy and love cannot be materialized and weighed and measured in controlled experiments. I cannot begin to translate what I experienced. I will not even try. I certainly cannot prove to anyone that what I felt was God. What I experienced is between God and myself.
And THAT is the point of this whole post.
The experience that I had of God within myself is just as valid as looking through a telescope at the Andromeda galaxy. It is just as valid as watching cells divide under a microscope. It is just as valid as reading about the observations made by others. It is just as valid as any kind of objective observation of the physical universe that can be made. Because ALL experiences and observations end up in the same place... within.
If you haven't experienced God, you will call yourself an atheist or agnostic and nothing anyone says about "experiencing" God is going to change your mind. If you HAVE experienced God there is nothing that you can say that will make the atheist or agnostic have the same experience of God.
That is why these discussions never seem to go anywhere.
It is up to each individual to search for him/herself. Throw away the old straw god you created and look around yourself with fresh eyes. Don't let your conceptions imprison you. Don't limit God to the "Christian" idea God or the "Hindu" idea God. Everything you see is a piece of God, another piece of the puzzle, another phrase in the story. Life and death. The universe. It's all just a great puzzle that each of us should delight in trying to solve.
How could it not be if so many people have such deep rooted beliefs in things without proof? It seems as though it is almost a criteria of humanity to have faith in something. That is one of the more challenging ideas for me to confront that was posed by the movie Contact, the idea that because so many people believe in something, that it should have more credibility.
I started reading the entries on this site because I wanted to know what other people got out of the movie Contact. As I got further into discussions with everyone, I realized that I had a much different purpose for reading these entries. I am testing my own beliefs, making sure that I am not following something that isn't the truth. If someone convinces me that I am wrong, I will be forced to change everything that I believe in. I'm looking for that, always, by discussing these things. My ideas about the universe, it's creation, and the afterlife have a lot of holes. There are many questions that I am forced to answer with an "I don't know". Like the question "Is there a God?". Perhaps that is the best I can do. Just in case it's not, I'm going to keep searching for answers that convince me all the while realizing that I may never find them. For those of you who are convinced by your ideas about the universe and reality, in a way, I envy you. I wish that I could find peace with my beliefs. But some of you don't try to test your beliefs, and even if you do, many times it's only half hearted. Many of the people whose beliefs I have questioned will not even listen to me, and they refuse to justify themselves... why should they? They're right! I'm wrong, and I should simply see that and agree with them. That I do not envy. I hope that everyone who has posted an entry on this site, and for that matter everyone who is looking for an answer to the questions posed here, comes to some kind of conclusion that they can be happy with.
Our gene holds the design for our brain. Every experience we have has a slight impact on our brain. Our brain is an extremely complex net of billions of neurons. Every neuron is connected to a dozen others; every neuron gives outputs depending on its input. Every second of our lives, we are making a 'decision' on what we are doing. That decision is can be reduced to neurons triggering other neurons which trigger other neurons, and eventually an 'action' neuron is triggered, which sends a impulse to the rest of our nervous system instructing the body what to do. So where does free will come in to play? I doubt the scientists will find a mysterious free will neuron, which initiates electrical impulses from out of nowhere.
I don't know if that's the best way to describe it. I've really struggled with trying to put this down on paper. There are only moments when I entirely comprehend it in my mind, and even then it is in the form of thought and not language.
In any event, the implications are that of futility and hopelessness. Hopelessness. I would like to thank Keith for giving this extraordinarily naked reason for his faith. He said hope, peace of mind. I had some pretty crazy thoughts on that last night (unfortunately I don't remember all of them). Perhaps 'god' (not god the creator or god of the afterlife or any god described in detail by any religion -- just god the idea) exists for that sole purpose: to give hope. Perhaps it is heaven to live a life of hope and hell to live a life of futility. I find it ironic that Daniel's friend compared faith in god to sitting in a chair. It is more comfortable to sit, take it from someone who has found no chair.
I could go on forever on tons of subjects, but I've caught this site too late in it's development, so I'll end with a few quotes, one is Shakespeare, one is Pink Floyd.
"Ignorance Is Bliss!"
"If you want to find out what's behind these cold eyes,
You'll just have to claw your way through the disguise."
"Life is but a walking shadow,
who frets and struts his hours upon the stage,
and the is hear no more.
It is a tale told by a fool,
full of sound and rage,
signifying nothing."
"Whatever will be will be."
Slim
In regards to the issue of people who've not heard of God going to Hell. I believe at this point in my life and learning, that all people are given an inborn instinct that there is a God. Romans 1:20 says, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." To me this says that we intuitively know that there is a higher being and we see through creation that He is there. Somehow, people seem to know that there is something out there bigger than us that got us here. Why else would religion of some sort have been so prevalent in virtually all of human history (from what I've absorbed from my h. school education and history classes anyway)? That's where the term child-like faith comes in. Children trust easily in God because the inborn knowledge of Him is there. I believe that God is just and loving. A person who has not ever heard the name Jesus or concieved of an organized religion will not be held to the same account as a person who has seen the Gospel, laid out for them. I don't know what God will do, cause I'm not Him, but I believe that He in all of His justness, is merciful, and gracious to all of His children.
The Hell thing. God loves us all. This is true. But God cannot tolerate sin. He just can't. Justness, is also a part of His character. God is perfect and he cannot tolerate the imperfection of sin that we chose by our free will. So, he must separate us from Him. But, His grace provided a way to Him despite that--through Jesus' death on the cross. We must only accept the gift of His grace.
As far as an all-powerful God having the power to defeat Satan. He does and He will. There is a final battle between God and Satan told of in Revelations. It describes the defeat of Satan that will take place during the time after Jesus' return. In the end, God will win. He will overcome, and there will be a new Heaven and a new earth where God's way will be lived out. Revelations 21:3-4 describes a bit about this new place in saying, "And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.'"
And what will Heaven be like? I have no idea. It's like a Christmas gift. Part of the fun is waiting to see what it will be.
Proving God? I've learned that only God can prove Himself. My proof is within myself. I'm different with Him and His leading than I am without, and there are things that have happened in my life that I can only attribute to God and His hand on me.
This is what I've come to believe. But, I in no way claim to know the answers.
In closing, I guess all I can say is I plan to keep believing, in a God of love, of justness, of power, and of grace. Thanks to all of you for opening my eyes to some new ideas, and for listening to mine.
The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
In many of the discussions I have had on this forum, perhaps the most
difficult barrier to a meaningful exchange has been due to a peculiar
confusion over one little word, one single concept which reaches into
the
depths of what each of us believe. That word is "Faith." Though
"Faith" is
a common word, one which we easily adopt into our vocabulary, the
definition
will vary depending on who you ask. Therefore, the purpose of this
essay is
to reach a definition upon which everyone can agree.
Does God exist? is a question which has become the topic of
much
debate and is, perhaps on some level, one over which many people have
deliberated --if not in a public arena or in the trenches of a heated
argument, within ones own mind and heart. But unfortunately, there is
a
growing tendency in our culture to ignore those mysteries which cannot
be
physically manipulated and interrogated; the question itself is
discredited
before one has even the presence of mind to imagine it.
To meet this challenge, to answer a question which is so basic and
fundamental to humanity, religious communities have erected
institutions
alongside their churches, which claim that science can help solve this
mystery so long as it is viewed through Bible-colored glasses; however,
in
the process, they have only obscured twentieth century science into a
blurry
construct. They have done little to validate faith and even less to
strengthen the religious community as a whole. They have dulled our
sense
for reason and ensnared our intellect with fallacious appeals to
ignorance,
holding our religion hostage as we quickly grab for the most convenient
answer, denouncing each discovery, every scientific advancement which
does
not fit neatly and snugly in our religiosity.
Is it any wonder our society has grown to see faith as a weakness
instead
of a virtue? In a culture that has developed a passion for guarantees
and
an obsession for precision, we have lost the capacity to apply faith in
any
meaningful way, not in our lives or our institutions.
Pick up, if you will, any book, article or essay treating faith from a
non-religious perspective, and compare it with how the religious
community
defines it. There, you will see that faith takes on a completely
different
meaning.
It is ironic that the secular world --obsessed with exactness and
precision-- cannot exercise this same passion toward an appropriate
understanding of faith. In accordance with society's need for
certainty, we
no longer tolerate generalizations. We are contemptuous of
broad-sweeping
declarations that speak for entire communities and cultures, or in some
cases, particular aspects of a culture. We no longer tolerate this
kind of
expression because, historically, it has been used as a tool of
oppression.
Yet, the secular world has managed to generalize faith in such a way
that
would make even a religious man reject it. They have drawn a
caricature, a
lampooned image of religion and are passing it off as the genuine
article.
"Faith," says secular society, "is the belief in something where there
is
no evidence or proof;" however, this understanding of faith implies
within
the definition itself that belief in God is unjustified. It has become
a
variation of sorts, which has liquefied "faith" to mean that all
faith is blind faith.
I have no illusions concerning the fact that some people exhibit a
sense of
stone-blind acceptance, an unquestioned dogma with respect to their
religion; however, we should, at least, wonder how it is possible that
such
an obscured understanding of faith has managed to trickle down into
popular
conception.
On the other hand, the religious definition of faith has been coated
with
so much rhetorical sugar, one might wonder how it is possible for any
man
not to believe in God. They would have us believe that faith in
God
is an axiom, an automatic given, which is just as easy exercise as
sitting
in a chair.
"When I sit in a chair," a friend once explained, "I do not know for
sure
it will sustain my weight. The legs could break, it could tip
backward,
etc. Since I have no guarantees, I am exercising faith by doing
something
as simple as sitting in a chair."
While it is true that we vest, at least some, trust in the structural
integrity of our furniture, I cannot be just as sure God exists as I am
about the strength of wood and nails, of metal and screws.
It is likely that the religious community has suffered from the same
failings of the modern world from which secular society suffers. The
religious community would like for faith to be as certain as possible.
They
would like faith to be "virtually" guaranteed.
Perhaps faith is most accurately describe as continuum, where blind
faith
resides on one extreme, and the kind described by my friend rests on
the
other. All expressions of faith do not require stone-blind acceptance,
but
it is also true that, with faith, nothing is certain. As I see it,
"Faith"
is an expression of belief--regardless of how likely or unlikely such a
belief is. Sometimes it might be very likely, though inconclusive.
Other
times, it may be just the opposite. Where would we place God on this
continuum? Is God a 50/50 proposition?
On a weekly show named, "The Justice Files," a Federal prosecutor was
debating on whether he should charge a man for a triple homicide. The
prosecutor explained that they "had good reason to believe Mr. Kidwell
(the
suspect) was guilty of three different homicides, but they couldn't
prove
it." Perhaps this is the most fair definition of faith we can imagine.
We
have good reason to believe that God exists, but we can't prove it.
--Carl Sagan
I'm almost embarrassed to admit it but I have felt a little emotional as I have read these final entries. This web site started out as an experiment and it evolved into belief shaping experience for me. I am grateful to all that have participated here, but I am especially grateful to "the regulars" who have contributed so much. I hope you look to me as a friend, like I do you.
The most powerful entries on this site are the ones that used simple reason. 20 years ago I served a 2-year full time mission for my church. As a missionary, I was exposed to a lot of emotionally charged propaganda. That stuff is ineffective when it is put up against honest sincerity.
It was easy for me to blow off the "I hate religion" entries because they didn't really say anything. On the other hand, there are several sincere entries on this site that caused me to question my religious beliefs. I wasn't expecting that. In fact, I don't think I would have built this site had I known of the personal challenge it would present to me.
One entry stands out because it's personal nature. Christian Johnson described his experience of loosing two of his children shortly after childbirth. Everyone should read it, but be prepared to be challenged if you are religious.
If this web site has a theme, it is faith verses the opposite of faith (what ever that is, maybe science?). I have stated before (and Daniel points out above) that science has faith and religion has science. It seems strange that there should be any conflict at all.
For example, believing in a big bang, even with all of it's evidence, is still a belief, at least until someone has seen a big bang.
At Easter time, I added an entry to another discussion board about the resurrection. I made the statement that for someone to believe in the resurrection of Christ they must rely on pure faith. There is no evidence for that event. I was answered by an offended Christian who went down his list of evidence for the resurrection.
The idea of faith in science doesn't bother me, but the idea of science in religion does. Science in religion seems like a contradiction, particularly in Christianity where faith is the underlying principle. It is faithless to need proof of the resurrection, or of anything about God for that matter. That doesn't mean that religious people can't be rational and intelligent. The glory of God is intelligence. I'm only saying that it is silly for religious people to try to use science to prove the existence of god.
Until someone taught me about it on this site I had never heard of Pascal's wager. I can't quote it but I think it goes something like, "believe just in case" or "if I believe and I'm wrong it won't matter. If I'm right I will get my eternal reward". What a poor reason to believe in God! I am going to rename it to "the defeated believer".
I don't think that pure blind faith exists. Everyone believes for a reason. I believe that I have developed a personal relationship with God. I think I have seen his influence in my life. I guess what I have is personal proof of God's existence that I cannot pass on to someone else. I believe that my prayers are answered.
I can sum up my reason for believing in one word: hope. There is peace in believing and I would prefer not to live without it. Hope is a very practical reason to believe in God. A few years ago I watched my father pass away. I watched life leave his body. I have seen the death of my child before she was born. What's wrong with believing that I will see them again? How is that unhealthy, or impractical, or even irrational? What's wrong with peace of mind? We are all entitled to it, aren't we?
It could be said that this hope is just a natural defense against all of the terrible things that happen in life. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It doesn't matter to me. I need hope. I would prefer to give the credit to God and not to nature.
To have hope I must believe in God. Specifically in God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ.
The love of God has been questioned on this site. With a belief in God, and from an eternal perspective, those questions disappear. The suffering that we see now is only a small moment compared to Eternal Life.
True enough, there is a punishment affixed to every law of God that is broken. Justice must be served, but because of the love of God, mercy satisfies the demands of justice. Jesus Christ provides mercy.
We are free to choose our own eternal destiny. We will be judged and rewarded according to our faith. Our faith will be measured by our works. I don't believe in just heaven or hell. I don't think it is that simple. Heaven has degrees of glory. Eternal Life is to attain the highest degree of glory and to live with God.
None of us deserves Eternal Life. The most righteous person on earth is not worthy of it. It is truly a gift from God and it comes to us because of the mercy that the atonement of Jesus Christ gives us. It is through Him that physical and spiritual death and pain are overcome. Because of him, we will know God. We can know what he knows and we can be given everything that he has. Therein lies my hope and that is why I have faith in God.
That's it. That is my last word. At the end of the 12 Day Debate I have another entry that summarizes my beliefs - for what it is worth.
About Daniel's entry: I think it is healthy for young people to show that kind of skepticism, for a while, but at some point in life we need to become settled in what we believe. I would go nuts if I constantly questioned my own beliefs. That does not mean that we should stop our pursuit of truth, but when we do find it, we should grasp it. Otherwise there is no real value to the truth.
So, why single out Christian? I have always liked his style. He is intelligent and well read, and now his entries have a story to tell.
The following is a slightly edited quote from Ellie in the movie. It is about her experience with the alien, but I can imagine it being placed somewhere in Christian's final entry and making perfect sense. It certainly describes my feelings about God and makes me wonder if Sagan wasn't such a skeptic after all:
November 13, 1999
Keith
I guess it is a little unfair of me to respond to a final entry, but this is my site, I can do that. Besides, anyone who wants to type up an entry and e-mail it to me is welcome to do so.
I had an experience... I can't prove, I can't even explain, but everything I know as a human being, everything that I am, tells me that it was real. I was given something wonderful, something that changed me forever. A vision of the universe that tells us, undeniably,...how rare and precious we all are. A vision that tells us that we belong to something that is greater than ourselves. That we are not... that none of us are alone. I wish I could share that. I wish that everyone, even for one moment, could feel that awe and humility and hope. That continues to be my wish.