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16.3.97 Deprived of property by force. 23.3.97 17:27 See another human being lose. 23.3.97 17:36 Inventing steel or something. From: "H.C. Andersen" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.democrats.d,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.society.labor-unions Subject: Re: Education IS a RIGHT! Fight fight fight fight! Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:58:18 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Guru George wrote: > >Only half finished. Is this just one inventor? Nope. > >It's an entire class, an entire continent. And you > An entire continent of inventors? If there were such a thing, we > would have heard about it by now, I think. > The inventor's life is his own responsibility. So is his education. Completely wrong. The only thing you can claim is your own effort and your own thought. Capital, labor, and resources simply exist. You can only own what you added on top of that. AND if your thought was only made possible by education society gave you, or because of the ideas of others, then you owe part what you THINK back to society as well. THAT is welfare. Deciding how much you owe back can either be left up to political autocracy, economic autocracy, or a democracy.
From: "H. Mencken" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.democrats.d,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.society.labor-unions Subject: Re: Education IS a RIGHT! Fight fight fight fight! Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 17:36:42 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Guru George wrote: > If the innovation is an innovation then it isn't copying anything > patented, is it? Duh. So how about this? An inventor is sick. He can't afford to buy medicine. He dies. His invention? Only half finished. Is this just one inventor? Nope. It's an entire class, an entire continent. And you wonder why AIDS hasn't been cured yet. Duh. Great minds are being WASTED in warfare and poverty, because capitalists are too busy making profits. Supply&demand itself is lame. Say I'm a blacksmith. People trade me their cabbages for horseshoes. As demand grows, I could easily teach more people to be blacksmiths, but why? It will just cut my profits. It'll be so much better for everyone else to be busy growing even more cabbages for me than, say, inventing steel or something.
From: "H. Mencken" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.democrats.d,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: Education IS a RIGHT! Fight fight fight fight! Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 17:27:23 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Big Oh wrote: > =| Do you have the right to use what knowledge you know? And > =| yet capitalism has invented patent laws to prevent this. > =| True, patent laws ARE one important incentive for > =| innovation, but if the application of these regulations > =| prevents the creation of new innovation, then they become > =| a disincentive. Society as a whole needs to find a way > =| to reward new innovation, because EVERYONE benefits from > =| new innovation (or at least, everyone WOULD, if there > =| was actual freedom of information). > If you innovate upon someone else's idea -- you get to patent the innovation. And what if you never have access to that idea in the first place because of idiotic competitive secrecy? How much effort is being wasted on reinventing the wheel instead of on actually trying to research new information? Why? This all consuming desire to "compete" and see another human being lose.
From: "Z. Beeblebrox" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.flame.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.europe,alt.nuke.the.USA,soc.culture.canada,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.folklore.military,alt.government.abuse,soc.couples.intercultural,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.mexican,soc.culture.europe,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa.constitution,soc.culture.african.american Subject: Re: Education IS a RIGHT! Fight fight fight fight! Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 23:53:33 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. David G. Hughey wrote: > The fallacy of your argument lies in the very comparison of taxation and > insurance. Taxation is the separation of property from people by force. > That is the difference between the government and any other entity; the > government has that power to deprive you of your property by force. Indeed it IS force. However, conquest is also force. A government then sells or gives away conquered land, and then enforces both the buyer's right to that land and its own right to that money. You have a right to anything of your own creation, but none of the resources that went into it. If you have used up valuable shared resoures, then you owe something back to society: welfare.
15.3.97 Not just Zen. From: "Z. Beeblebrox" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.society.labor-unions,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.socialism,sci.econ,rec.arts.movies.current-films,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: Star Wars reinterpreted Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:26:38 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Jim Glass wrote: > >...well, often deluded, but hey. French revolutionaries were correct, > >before 1789. Marie Antoinette was correct, just before she lost her > >marbles. > And I suppose Adolph Hitler was "correct" when he was out of > power? You know...when he was a washed up third-rate painter > dreaming of world conquest? > How about the "powerless" Jordanian soldier who mowed down > seven little girls the other day. I guess HE was "correct" as well. Um, smell the coffee, dillweed. Who do you think is more powerless - the guy with his finger on the trigger or the guy looking up the barrel of a blaster? Anyone that is able to cause the death of another has too much power. And yes, even to the point of defending Hitler (or Darth or Jabba), so long as no one has power over anyone else's life, then there is no harm in letting everyone speak their mind. > >"But beware the Dark Side - aggression, fear, hatred." Fear is > >Dark?? Not just Zen, old chap. Fear & jealousy result from the > >opposite of cooperation - competition - on which all of > >capitalism is based. > Right. See, there was no fear--none at all--in the Soviet Union. > Nobody went to the Gulag (that would be Dark Side). And in > North Korea, no fear, no hatred. Red China is a paradise. The difference between autocracy and capitalism is the difference between political and economic competition. You can no more say that the Soviet Union, North Korea, or China achieved communism than you can say any of our Western countries achieved democracy. So long as money can buy power and power can steal money, there will never be equality.
From: "J. Calvin" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.socialism,sci.econ,rec.arts.movies.current-films Subject: Star Wars reinterpreted Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 03:35:40 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. The constant struggle of the powerless against the powerful marks all of history. And, by definition, the powerless are ALWAYS correct. ...well, often deluded, but hey. French revolutionaries were correct, before 1789. Marie Antoinette was correct, just before she lost her marbles. The Force (TM) is a "religion". "Life creates it. Makes it grow. It surrounds us, binds us." Too true. Abundant life cannot exist without a set of beliefs that foster cooperation and non-violence. "But beware the Dark Side - aggression, fear, hatred." Fear is Dark?? Not just Zen, old chap. Fear & jealousy result from the opposite of cooperation - competition - on which all of capitalism is based. Someday, maybe centuries into the future, we'll get beyond a 51% socialist republic and achieve a fully unanimous communist democracy. Someday. Thousands of Ken Sira-Wiwa's may die waiting for that day, but it will happen. Almost wish aliens would invade and spank us all for being naughty.
From: David Matthews 2 dmatthew@ix.netcom.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.society.civil-liberty Subject: Re: Libertarians Now Support Communism? Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:41:49 -0500 Organization: http://members.aol.com/DJM2/D2page.html VISIT IT!! AND TELL YOUR FRIENDS!! J. Kendrick McPeters wrote: (cutting to the chase) > I concede that the original posting contained no such statement as > "hooray! no more property rights!" > But, c'mon. Read it again, this time between the lines... Which I did. The post doesn't reflect the sentiments of Libertarians, large or small "L" - only the person posting it. Granted, if some of the more known libertarians (Koro, Czar Chasm, Andrew Hall, ect.) started praising the message, or if it came from one of the Libertarian groups such as the Cato Institute, the Libertarian Party, or the Libertarian Alliance I'd be the first one crying foul. Instead it came from one poster. A person who as much right to post his or her view on this issue as any other libertarian detractor. > The "spotted owl saviors" cheered on by the original poster are not, > and never have been, friends of liberty. They are doing all they can > to bring about total federal control over any and all private property > unlucky enough to have an "endangered species" near by. > What kind of victory is it to exclude millions of acres of land, some > of it no doubt privately owned, from any human use? An environmental > whacko victory... a socialist victory... but not a Libertarian one. None for us. On that we are in agreement with. > If property rights are even remotely relevant, the Endangered Species > Act and other Greenie abominations have to be opposed. Once again, we're on the same side here. > Sure, the Libertarian Party needs to have a big tent... a tent big > enough for environmentalists who support private property. > But the Watermelon ("green on the outside, red on the inside") crowd > should kindly but firmly be asked to stay out. > We are in agreement here, right? Or at least let them know they're free to do it as long as it's in their own back yard. Just ask Hugh Hefner, who has his own collection of rare and endangered birds at the Playboy Mansion. > BTW: Now that cloning is here (or around the corner), let's just make > the greenies happy. > Wanna preserve biodiversity and unique genetic patterns? Fine... > let's just round up a few spotted owls, whooping cranes and condors; > freeze them in liquid nitrogen, and store em in an old missle silo. > That way, in the unlikely event that future generations want these > species back, they can thaw em out and hatch a whole aviary of clones. > In the here and now, we could get on with our lives, and enjoy the > restoration of our property rights. Or just clone then right here and now and take ALL the species off of the Endangered Species list. Then the list will be pointless, the law useless, and everyone should be happy! -- ON MORALISM: "Wealth, discovering its power, has reached out its long arms to grab the distant and innumerable sinner; it has gone down into its deep pockets to pay for his costly pursuit and flaying; it has created the puritan entrepreneur, the daring and imaginable organizer of puritanism, the baron of moral endeavor." "(The American Puritan) was not content with the rescue of his own soul. He felt an irresistable impulse to hand salvation on, to disperse and multiply it, to ram it down reluctant throats, to make it free, universal and compulsory... a campaign of repression and pumishment perhaps unequaled in the history of the world." * from the words of H.L. Menchen, 1919 * - David Matthews 2 http://members.aol.com/DJM2/D2page.html VISIT IT!! AND TELL YOUR FRIENDS!!
13.3.97 19:02 Mars Attacks! 13.3.97 19:09 Being there first. 13.3.97 19:19 Cannot claim nature. From: "T. Hobbes" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.society.labor-unions,soc.culture.europe,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.conspiracy,misc.immigration.usa,alt.politics.immigration,talk.politics.guns,alt.illuminati,alt.anarchism,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.flame.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.europe,alt.nuke.the.USA,soc.culture.canada,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.folklore.military,alt.government.abuse,soc.couples.intercultural,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.mexican,soc.culture.europe,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,soc.culture.african.american Subject: Re: Jewish Media Blitz Launched Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:44:49 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Dan Leonik wrote: > "America' is a White Man's vision; a White man's country. It was the > White man that was the driving force, the arms and legs, and most of > all, the brains behind the country that developed. As I say, the > nonwhites came along for the ride. So who counts as white? Irish? Italians? Eastern Europeans? Do Jews count? Catholics? Atheists? Homosexuals? If you can't be held responsible for the murder of a bunch of savages hundreds of years ago, how come you get to claim credit for "building this country"? Yeah, you were there? Laying down rails and picking cotton? The reason immigrants were so successful is because of one thing: "gumption". They got off their butts and did something. And it's those with that almighty gumption (TM) that continues to build this country (that is, they would, if we didn't deny them an education or keep them out with border patrols). It's those lazy assed decendents of immigrants that are too fat to get off their lazy butts and engage in racist conservatism.
From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,soc.culture.europe,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.conspiracy,misc.immigration.usa,alt.politics.immigration,talk.politics.guns,alt.illuminati,alt.anarchism,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.flame.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.europe,alt.nuke.the.USA,soc.culture.canada,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.folklore.military,alt.government.abuse,soc.couples.intercultural,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.mexican,soc.culture.europe,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,soc.culture.african.american Subject: Re: Jewish Media Blitz Launched Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:19:24 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Andrew T. Bell wrote: > > I don't hate anybody because of their heritage. I just want > > them to practice their heritage in their own country and stay > > out of mine. > 2) Maybe second? Somehow I doubt you're a Native American - though > "Indian" is actually a lot more accurate - its root being "indigenous." Even "natives" cannot claim nature. Who's to know if they've ever displaced anyone else? The wrong that WAS done to "Native" Americans was when their right to make a living was taken away from them. The right to make a living continues to be taken away from anyone who needs to fork over capital or labor, just to have access to existing resources. If you lost access, then you deserve welfare from those who do have access.
From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,soc.culture.europe,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.conspiracy,misc.immigration.usa,alt.politics.immigration,talk.politics.guns,alt.illuminati,alt.anarchism,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.flame.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.europe,alt.nuke.the.USA,soc.culture.canada,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.folklore.military,alt.government.abuse,soc.couples.intercultural,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.mexican,soc.culture.europe,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,soc.culture.african.american Subject: Re: Jewish Media Blitz Launched Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:09:01 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Brian Smith wrote: > Show me Israel's deed to Palestine. Then we'll talk! > And don't give me the garbage that Israel "rightfully took the land > from the Arabs through a war." Any way you slice it, that is still > taking land by force. What needs to happen is an end to all this capitalist idiocy. Land cannot be claimed by violence. Land cannot even be claimed by "being there first". Land is created by nature. And if anyone wants to use it to help fight off nature's spears, then he should also share a bit of what he's taken from the land with everyone else. ---------- The Bible tells us to love our neighbors and also to love our enemies; probably because they are generally the same people. -G.K. Chesterton/Mark Twain
From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,soc.culture.europe,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.skinheads,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.conspiracy,misc.immigration.usa,alt.politics.immigration,talk.politics.guns,alt.illuminati,alt.anarchism,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.flame.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.europe,alt.nuke.the.USA,soc.culture.canada,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.folklore.military,alt.government.abuse,soc.couples.intercultural,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.mexican,soc.culture.europe,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,soc.culture.african.american Subject: Re: Jewish Media Blitz Launched Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:02:59 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Jim Bowery wrote: > If Hitler had been any sort of leader, he would have turned Germany's > control over to someone like Henry Ford instead of dooming us to > generations of moral derision from Jews. There is no "us". At least, the only "us" is all of humanity. ...or it would've been if economic and political competition hadn't prevented us from completing this Tower of Babel known as peace and cooperation. And in the true "Independence Day" / "Mars Attacks!" vein, it would extend even to aliens if we were able to communicate and share all inventions, knowledge, ideas, art, whathaveyou... instead of wasting each other's time fighting a war.
From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.europe.misc,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: Is Anti-Semitism Caused by Jealousy of Jewish Success? Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:31:37 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. smaceach@polar.bowdoin.edu wrote: > Nope. Rank stupidity seems to be the proximate cause, > from what I can see. Yep, rank stupidity within an economy in which competition is the ultimate goal. All hatred and racism comes down to competition. But human beings did not form society based on peer competition any more than lower animals formed "societies" (hives, flocks, packs, schools, herds) based on competition. It is by working together, by education that has allowed mankind to reach where it is today; not warfare. Construction, not destruction.
11.3.97 All the gold in the world. From: "M. Luther" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.economics,alt.postmodern,alt.society.labor-unions,sci.econ,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh Subject: Re: wealth Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 14:19:55 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Warrl kyree Tale'sedrin wrote: > But I have a bigger problem with the government deciding how much of > my resources I will put into doing something about the homeless, and > what those resources will be used for. WHAT resources? Is it a crime for me to give you a figment of my imagination and then steal it back? That's EXACTLY what "money" is... a graven idol, the emperor's new clothes, representing only figments of our imaginations. Most human philosophies evolved the need to "save" because saving food helps them through the winter, saving raw materials helps them repair their shelter, saving natural resources keeps production going. BUT what WHAT are we "saving" today? Paper. Numbers. Figments. And farmers are in debt, unable to buy farm equipment, unable to grow or preserve food. Can there be anything more stupid than this capitalist worship of the Almighty Dollar? ------- In a world lost in propaganda and censorship, the real truth is spoken only by liars and fools.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.postmodern,alt.politics.equality,talk.politics.theory From: rteeter@netcom.com (Robert Teeter) Subject: Re: wealth Organization: Netcom On-Line Services Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:12:53 GMT Eric Lorenzo (lorenzo@cc.gatech.edu) wrote: : In article 5g3j18$bcr@panix2.panix.com, G*rd*n gcf@panix.com wrote: : >miga0003@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Larisa Migachyov): : >| ... Value is subjective. ... : >Then we don't need our industrial system, or in fact any : >kind of work. All we need to do is evaluate certain objects : >-- rocks of a certain shape, let us say -- very highly. We : >will be surrounded by a paradise of wealth. : There is a clear distinction between "subjective" and "arbitrary" that : you seem to be failing to make. Just because the value we place on an : object is determined within ourselves does not mean that we have : conscious, willful control over the process of assigning that value. I think you missed the point. You could have all the gold in the world, but if there's nothing to spend it on, you aren't wealthy. There has to be people producing goods and services for anything to have any value. -- Bob Teeter (rteeter@netcom.com) | "Write me a few of your lines" http://www.wco.com/~rteeter/ | -- Mississippi Fred McDowell "You might say that, but I couldn't possibly comment." -- Francis Urquhart "Only connect" -- E. M. Forster
From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.british,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.datahighway,alt.politics.ec,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.europe.misc,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.org.un,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: How Jews Enforce Political Correctness in the Media Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 18:38:24 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Brian Smith wrote: > Alright. You can look at this way. Considering that over *50%* of > Clinton's appointments have been Jews, and Jews comprise only 2-5% of > the population, any way you cut it -- Jews are GROSSLY > over-represented in Clinton's appointments by a factor of =at least= > 10 to 1 to their population. Could it be that they are all SMARTER than you are? Here is why: for the same reason left-handers, atheists, and the near-sighted are over-represented in successful business. When faced with oppression, they look into themselves for weakness. The weaknesses they find, they fix. It's those who are always looking to improve themselves that succeed. It's egotistical cripples like you who willfully ignore your own weaknesses, attack the faults of others, that are ultimately doomed to failure.
From: "J. McCarthy" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.save.the.earth,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: Will the global economy make the world a better place? Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:41:10 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. > Bruce Salem wrote: > > feel. Global competiton and the technology that has created it, international > > shipping, telecommunications, and computers, has acclerated the dislocation > > by demanding flexibility, often in the form of sleep deprivation, while > > diminishing security. People will in time rebel, maybe sooner than later, > > to being treated like machines and as a commodity, being taken out of > > their natures. > > This puts the lie to the myth of capitalism that it promotes > > competiton. It only allows for competiton in new markets, but these > > very quicly settle down to oligopaly in mature markets where big > > players emerge who swallow the competiton as the lemmings in the > > main market choose from few leaders under poor information flow. > > China as it needs more of the world's oil. War will come before any > > large scale ecological collapse. If that happens, famine will result. > > A country with any wealth at all will probably go military on the > > eve of that. > > >Why doomed? Because the biosphere is far, far from capable of sustaining > > >all six billion of us at the consumption levels of the North. > > We need to reconsider the corporation. We may also need to resturcture > > economies to work as sustianable rather than profit-making. There may have > > to be a drastic reduction in for-profit business, most people working in > > non-profit organizations. > > We must ultimately decide the values in our society. We do not > > have to be seduced by advertizers to exhibit the addictive behaviors > > that make us dependant on corporations which have no plan other than > > extending the bottom line. And we should also consider how many of our resources are wasted on marketing. How many additional pages in newspapers? How much creative thought? How many hours of airtime that could be spent on education instead? And for what? A batch of lies that could easily be replaced by impartial reviewers with the consumers' interests in mind instead of the corporations'. It is the advancement of human knowledge that enables this planet to support so many more billions than it did in the past. And it will be the advancement of human knowledge that enables it to support more. But how much of human knowledge is being hidden behind trade secrets or obstructed by patent laws? How much of education is being obstructed because corporations only want people to work FOR them, and not people smart enough to compete AGAINST them? It is peer competition that is destructive. It is competition against universal hardship that fosters comradery and the sharing of information.
10.3.97 Success stories. From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.british,alt.politics.bush,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.datahighway,alt.politics.ec,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.europe.misc,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.org.un,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: JEWISH MEDIA CONTROL: DOCUMENTED Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 18:57:42 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Brian Smith wrote: > >But don't delay! I'm left-handed, and we're taking the > >world over next Thursday. The Jews will be kicked out of > >office (President of US/CBS/IBM/Russia, Imam, Pope, chief > >dogcatcher of Podunk, etc.) -- except for the left-handed > >ones, of course. > Yeah, yeah. OK. I know. You're saying that it "doesn't matter" if > Jews run the media -- that the media would be no different if Arabs or > White supremacists owned the media, or left-handed people, right? > That Jews really don't ever make intelligent decisions to protect or > promote their interests as a group, right? Here's a clue: it's not race, it's not religion, it's class. Why do minorities jump into entertainment or the media? It's because racists like you give them no hope of being elected themselves. Here is the solution: the rich do not control the media, the rich do not control the government. No campaign contributions, no lobby groups. Instead, true freedom of expression for everyone, yes, even racist losers like you. It's called mutual education (of course, only if both sides are willing to admit their own errors). Only those not confident enough in their own beliefs fear freedom of expression.
From: "J. McCarthy" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.british,alt.politics.bush,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.datahighway,alt.politics.ec,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.europe.misc,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.org.un,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: JEWISH MEDIA CONTROL: DOCUMENTED Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:01:17 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Brian Smith wrote: > b- headed by Michael Eisner (Jewish) > b- headed by CEO Michael Levin (Jewish) > b) Headed by Sumner Redstone (born Murray Rothstein -- Jewish). > Redstone -actually- owns 76% of Viacom's shares ($3 billion). Ok, now tell me how many of the world's greatest success stories are first generation immigrants? Left-handed? Homosexual? Non-first born sons? Atheist? It is those who have known oppression who succeed. They succeed because they are willing to challenge tradition. They succeed because they know how easy it is to be wrong. They push civilization along with new ideas. Some do it by changing the system. Some do it by fighting the system. Only idiot conservatives hold back progress.
From: gcf@panix.com (G*rd*n) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.philosophy.misc Subject: Re: Locke Was not a Socialist Date: 10 Mar 1997 19:51:37 -0500 Organization: }"{ }"{ }"{ }"{ "Jane Doe" jane@doe.com: | Although Locke can be hard to read and understand, he has made it very | clear that all people have the rights to life, liberty, and especially | property. If he had any socialist ideas, he would have to be quite a | hypocrite or a complete buffoon, contradicting himself right and | left--since socialists do not believe all men have the right to property, | and he clearly wrote in favor of it. ... Actually, one could say that is precisely socialists who believe that all men (by which I guess you mean all people) have the right to property, exercised universally and collectively. When Jefferson and his friends were writing the Declaration of Independence, they balked at copying Locke's formula of rights to "life, liberty, and property" directly because they feared that some of the propertyless might use this statement as a pretext to demand that the government supply them with property. Nor could they write "the right to acquire property" because, again, the propertyless could demand that the government supply them with the means of acquisition. Hence the vague, but much safer, "pursuit of happines." In point of fact, property was acquired in Britain by seizing common and Church lands, and in America by the theft of land from the Indians and labor from the Negro slaves. This was not something anyone wanted to write up, especially when they wanted to look noble and Founding-fatherish. No wonder they had trouble with it. So who said Locke was a socialist, anyway? -- }"{ G*rd*n }"{ gcf@panix.com }"{ ----------------------------------------------- NOTE: if your ISP permits junkmailing, you will probably not be able to reach me by email.
From: "J. McCarthy" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: THE JEWISH MEDIA'S WAR ON ASIANS!!!!! Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:13:02 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Alvin Nichter wrote: > : The Jewish media in America has recently begun a long-term campaign to > : demonize China and all Asian people in Americans' eyes. > If he/she/it is trying to get people of Asian descent to believe > any of this anti-Semitic claptrap, they will see "jt's" > blind hate for what it is. Asians, are in fact, in many ways similar to Jews. Like any immigrant group, faced with oppression, whether by a prejudiced majority or overwhelmed by military might, they work hard to find weaknesses in themselves and fix them... while those in power grow complacent and refuse to admit their own failures. It's those who have to fight oppression that find new ideas and new avenues to success... This is reflected in this country's entertainment industry. However, those in power, of course, don't want any more challenges to their domination. So they promote race hatred and culture hatred, in hopes that they can destroy this Tower of Babel before it's finished.
13.3.97 Time to use it. 14.3.97 Against human nature. 24.3.97 16:42 Unanimous consent is impossible. 24.3.97 16:46 Looters and freeloaders. From: "D. Gale" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.society.anarchy,alt.anarchism,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.reform Subject: Re: Greed ain't natural Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 13:10:50 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Roy Lemons wrote: > Last night I talked to a person that has recently been to Russia. If you > feel that reports coming out of Russia have just been some Soviet > propaganda you need to go see for your self. > The person that I worked with came from working in an air-conditioning > manufacturing plant. They had no power tools, not even a power drill. And WHAT do you think is the cause of these problems in Russia? The LAMEST attempts at market "reforms" with hardly any of what passes for freedom of speech that we have here. Fact is, anybody will steal from a company or government that he feels does not belong to him. That person feels this way because he is forced to follow orders, and neither gets to vote nor debate the policy given to him. And he is only allowed to continue stealing because his own inferiors do not have the power to elect someone else.
From: "H. Mencken" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.society.anarchy,alt.anarchism,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.reform,alt.society.labor-unions Subject: Re: Greed ain't natural Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:46:58 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. LQuest wrote: > >Capitalism grows out of the barrel of a gun. > Socialism grows out of the barrel of a gun. Any government that INITIATES > force against harmless individuals instantly evicts itself from the realm of > civilized behavior. Defending HONESTLY acquired (earned) property from the > looters and freeloaders of the world is the ONLY legitimate function of > government. Who owns the guns? Police and military. Who controls them? The government. Who controls the government? Whoever has the most contribution dollars, whoever can hire the most lobbyists. Sure, under capitalism, everyone is equal, but the rich are more equal.
From: "H. Mencken" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.society.anarchy,alt.anarchism,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.reform,alt.society.labor-unions Subject: Re: Greed ain't natural Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:42:15 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Mike wrote: > And it is man that transforms natural resources into a > finished product. If everyone one on the Earth was > entitled to an equal portion of every natural resource, > nothing would be produced, becuase only a small minority > have the knowledge necessary to transform said resource into a > finished product. And if one had to have > everyone's consent to manufacture said resource, > again, nothing will ever be produced, because > unanimous consent is impossible. True, unanimous consent is impossible. That is why so many governments have relied on majority democracies. So who decides who gets to use what resources? In a majority democracy, the majority does. In a capitalist "democracy", whoever has the most contribution money and lobbyists do. --- Freedom of speech for the poor, freedom to be heard for the rich.
From: Shadow shadow42@erols.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.society.anarchy,alt.anarchism,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.reform Subject: Re: Greed ain't natural Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:08:38 -0800 Organization: Erol's Internet Services To everyone who says that "socialism doesn't work because it goes against human nature": Guess what? Humans evolved as a socialistic animal. The very first example of socialism is... THE FAMILY. Families go by the principle of "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs." The very first tribal structures also evolved along these lines. --Shadow Outcast! writing & wranting http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/2532
From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.socialism.trotsky,alt.society.anarchy,alt.anarchism,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: Greed ain't natural Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:28:02 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Jim Glass wrote: > > Greed, rather, seems to be a neurosis induced by modern society. > >Modern capitalism elevates it to the level of a god. Nuerosis as god? > Oh yeah? Ask Jesus. He had some dealings with greedy guys, > and had something to say about it. Greed, unfortunately, is all too natural. Greed drives individuals to personal survival. Collective greed drives groups to group survival. To balance greed, however, guilt and pity evolved to help individuals work together. And of course, now we have that ultimate evolutionary trait: REASON. It's time to USE IT, dammit. Would you and I be more likely to survive if we fought a war, or would you and I be more likely to survive if we stopped lying to and keeping secrets from each other?
14.3.97 Superfluous people. From: "Z. Beeblebrox" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics,talk.politics.guns,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.women,talk.politics.theory,alt.flame.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.fan.bob-dole,alt.current-events.usa,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.media,alt.president.clinton,alt.society.liberalism,alt.philosophy.objectivism Subject: Re: The Space Program..was:Re: Unequal Distribution of Wealth? Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:58:16 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Lew Glendenning wrote: > To the extent bureaucracy is indeed capitalisms' way of implementing > socialism, it is a disaster. > You can't do just one thing in complex systems. So, we put people into > these de-humanizing bureaucracies, give them meaningless work to do, > remove all incentives to do anything better, remove all incentives to be > honest/have integrity, then expect our society to be a better place? Agreed. > BTW: what is it that socialist states use to implement socialism? I > watched Mel Brook's "12 Chairs" last night. Excellent, and some good > jokes re: bureaucracies in early Russia. These bureaucracies did not > diminish with its progress towards diminuition of the state. There you go assuming Russia was actually trying to achieve socialism, like America is actually trying to achieve democracy. False in both cases. Capitalists fear education would lead to more economic competition. Autocrats fear education would lead to more political competition. Both systems result in bureaucratic inefficiency. > Private/public research does matter. Many studies have shown that > public research is extremely inefficient in converting knowledge to any > kind of economic activity. This is even true of some private companies, > Xerox being an outstanding example in computer science research. And yet Xerox got next to nothing for practically inventing the personal computer industry. Where is the incentive? The problem with capitalism is that there's no incentive to innovate, UNLESS it results in more profits. There's no incentive to create or share information UNLESS it results in more profits. It's hard to imagine HOW society is hurt by education, but capitalism has found the answer.
From: zepp@snowcrest.net (Zepp) Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics,talk.politics.guns,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.women,talk.politics.theory,alt.flame.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.fan.bob-dole,alt.current-events.usa,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.media,alt.president.clinton,alt.society.liberalism,alt.philosophy.objectivism Subject: Re: The Space Program..was:Re: Unequal Distribution of Wealth? Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:06:58 GMT Organization: SnowCrest Net On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:52:04 -0800, "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com wrote: >Lew Glendenning wrote: >> In order to deal with the gov, you have to have an amazing bureaucracy. >> Lots of lawyers and people who understand gov contract procedures. A >> nightmare. >Correct. However, the benefit of such bureaucracy is that it >keeps people at work, instead of on welfare. This inefficiency >is capitalism's way of implementing "socialism". The efficient >solution is to get rid of all the useless jobs and instead send >them all off to school, all expense paid (use the money that >was being wasted on their salaries before), and let them >produce new ideas and new inventions for all of society. You raise a good point. We have reached a point in our techology where a relative few can provide for the needs of all. We have 30 million superfluous people in our society, not because we're in a depression, but because demand has been met. 30 million people out of work, and yet we have no significant shortage of goods and services. This is something the conservatives can't address--most of them firmly believe that the jobs must be out there somewhere, doing something. The libertarians, of course, don't give a rip. They support the right of the unlucky to starve. But the fact remains: we have far more people than our economy needs. So we need to either make fundemental changes in our economy to bring these people back in, or we need to open death camps. That or we erect a REAL welfare state, which is only faintly better than death camps. >> Compare the difference of a Rutan plane and something designed for gov, >> and you will know what private space launch vehicle corporations can and >> have done, relative to NASA. >Whether private or public is not what matters. What matters is >that the result of this research needs to help everyone, not >just the upper / middle class. Space research is indeed >important for the future of all humanity. The emphasis here >is ALL... the goal of civilization is to provide a better life >for every member, not cool plastic toys in cereal boxes. Exactly. We need a FUTURE, and not just more goddam television ads. ===================================================================== "No political theory is adequate unless it is applicable to children as well as to men and women" --Bertrand Russell Novus Ordo Seclorum Volpus de Marina =====================================================================
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 23:51:36 -0600 From: John Bicketts sfeikema@mach3ww.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d, Subject: Old free market capitalism is dead Frequently, those who argue against socialism are in love with the old myth that in America you can get rich and if you dont it's your own fault. They are, of course, in love with the old myth of free enterprise. Not incomprehensibly. It has a certain appeal. I'm sorry, folks, that may have been true 150 years ago, but it ain't now. We are at the mercy of a handful of multinational corporations who control virtually everything- including, increasingly, politics. These corporations form 'oligopolies', in which just a few companies compete (minimally, usually. Price wars are bad for profits, goes an unwritten agreement) in the same field. And no 'rugged individualist", no matter how smart they are, can compete with them. Who was it that said that it cost him millions of dollars to find out he was too poor to compete against GM, Ford & Chrysler? You still may have a chance in brand-new fields like computers. Even in computers, though, it's dissapearing as Bill Gates takes the place over. The multinationals are like nations unto themselves,and undemocratic exploitive ones they are! Capitalism is no longer a progressive force like it once was. It is holding back humanity and has to go. Wake up from your Old West daydream and face the reality of multinational monopolists!
13.3.97 All the numbers. 14.3.97 The better your chance of winning. 17.3.97 Their work is no longer valuable. 20.3.97 Defining a standard of living. 23.3.97 Different from counterfeiting. 24.3.97 Depends simply on the laws of the land. 28.3.97 12:32 If you want a better life. 28.3.97 15:31 Hallmarks of socialism. 31.3.97 What exactly is a recession? 7.4.97 They too are enterprising entrepreneurs. From: "C. Kane" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,sci.econ,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.labor-unions,misc.taxes,alt.politics.radical-left,misc.invest.stocks,alt.politics.socialism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh Subject: Re: STOCK MARKET = PYRAMID SCHEME Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 18:10:42 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. D. Scott Secor wrote: > You see, you misguided moron, the poorest of the poor in the United States > lives several times better than most of the Third World. How do you > explain the millions that have, quite literally, put their lives on the > line to travel here -- legally or otherwise? What? You mean in terms of health care? A place to live? An education? Sorry bub. That happens under socialism. The reason a country is poor is because either capitalism or autocracy has run amuck. The reason the poor are so much "better off" here is because "democracy" has elected a welfare state. But you can't achieve democracy if the rich are able to buy their way into power. And you can't achieve socialism if the powerful can steal their way into wealth.
From: "H. Stowe" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.democrats.d,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.libertarian,sci.econ,alt.politics.socialism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,misc.taxes,rec.collecting.paper-money,misc.invest.stocks,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.radical-left,misc.invest Subject: Re: STOCK MARKET = PYRAMID SCHEME Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 18:07:21 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Thomas Busillo wrote: > I thought capital and productivity also had some bearing on an economy? > In the stock market, there is no free lunch. Investor A assumes risk. There is indeed a free lunch. The free lunch comes from all the idiots lured into the stock market, like the idiots lured into playing the lottery. That fact is, the supply of currency in the world is limited. So it really DOES appear that you can't get a free lunch unless some lame country prints more money. But are we more "wealthy" today than we were 1000 years ago? You bet. But how? By printing more money? By investing in nose- hair trimmers? Nope. By welfare, education, and research. > Here's a strange idea: instead of creating a "REAL welfare system", why not > make it easier to create jobs? Calling for "the unimpeded flow of capital to > its most productive uses" obviously begs some definitions, but I would argue > on balance, in the long-term, the capital gains tax harms the very people > you're trying to help. Wrongo. "Real jobs" eh? Practically ALL of the jobs in the American economy are lame jobs. "Communists" waste human effort sweeping the roads. We waste human effort on phone-sex. It happens under "communism" because of deluded politicians. It happens under capitalism because the rich have nothing better to do with their money, because "entrepreneurs" are always in search of the next Great Empty Market, no matter how completely idiotic it is. And so the poor starve. (Or at least save themselves by dealing a few controlled substances... they too are enterprising entrepreneurs.)
From: "D. Gale" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.labor-unions,sci.econ,misc.invest.stocks,misc.taxes,alt.politics.socialism,misc.invest Subject: Re: STOCK MARKET = PYRAMID SCHEME Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 14:26:55 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Joel wrote: > Do you really believe that investing in a stock is > the same as putting your money under the mattress? > Let me educate you. When you buy a stock, you buy > a piece of a corporation. This entitles you to a > share of the corporation's earnings which the company > may return to you in the form of a dividend. Correct... assuming the stock does pay a dividend. If not, then the stock represents a share of the decision- making ability; a share of the power, rather than a share of the wealth. > >If you waste it on lame low-wage jobs or inefficient > >bureaucracy, no good comes out of it. What this country > >needs is a fat capital gains tax, > And cause a recession? Taxation on dividends and > capital gains is double taxation since the corporation > had to pay taxes on its income. What exactly is a recession? When the stock market goes down? When unemployment is high? When everyone is supported by welfare and able to go to school and engage in research, providing new knowledge for the world, instead of hiding it behind trade secrets and patents? > Corporations spend billions of $ on R&D every year. Yes. And then the results of that research is ignored by conceited children in upper management. And you get another Xerox Parc. Why does this happen? For the same reason great ideas are ignored in "communist" autocracies. Lack of democracy, leading to self-censorship. Are these the kinds of companies you want to invest in? -------- I'm surrounded by scarecrows, lions, and tin men.
From: "H.C. Andersen" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.democrats.d,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.republican,misc.taxes,alt.politics.radical-left,misc.invest.stocks,alt.society.labor-unions Subject: Re: STOCK MARKET = PYRAMID SCHEME Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:31:11 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Gerry Clough wrote: > >Autocracy creates capitalism. > Never has been true. Not likely to be. Capitalism requires, as a > prerequitsite, personal freedom. Autocracy denies that tenet. DEMOCRACY requires a prerequisite tenet - freedom of expression. Capitalism denies that with campaign contributions, lobbyists, and expensive airtime costs. Only the rich have have freedom of expression under capitalism. Only the powerful have freedom of expression under autocracy. Democratic socialism is the only path to true liberty. > >altavoz: "Majority democracy creates socialism." B.S. !!! > >In countries that are sympathetic to socialism , it creates > >soc' , in countries sympathetic to capitalism , it creates > >capitalism . But capitalism needs small govt . Majority democracy creates welfare, health care, public education. All hallmarks of socialism. Majority democracy means that there are some things people believe are too valuable to be left to the whims of capitalists. In countries manipulated by capitalist marketing, these socialist programs are left with bare bones funding, dooming society to racism and crime.
From: "H.C. Anderson" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.libertarian,sci.econ,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.usa.republican,misc.taxes,rec.collecting.paper-money,misc.invest.stocks,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.radical-left,misc.invest,talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: STOCK MARKET = PYRAMID SCHEME Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:32:42 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. j.s.t wrote: > Anybody who thinks, and there are a lot of people on the net > who do think, that "stock markets create value" (!!!) obviously > also believe in Santa Clause! The foundation of any economy > is the work input ( that isn't just economics it's Physics > as well! ) Capital is the result of work... ie you don't get > something for nothing. Simply assigning a number to a stock > on the markets without reference to a competitive environment, > which is pretty common lately merely devalues and debases > the local currency... nothing else! > Unless of course the world has changed and you'll sell me > a loaf of bread for a fig leaf. Exactly. All those pieces of paper should be put to good use. If you just let it hang around in the stock market, in a bank, or under your mattress, no good comes out of it. If you waste it on lame low-wage jobs or inefficient bureaucracy, no good comes out of it. What this country needs is a fat capital gains tax, and use that to build a REAL welfare system for everyone out of work, but put ON TOP OF THAT, funding for education and research. If you're out of work, go TEACH someone. If you've run out of stuff to teach, go LEARN from someone until you can find a job. It's the production of knowledge that moves society forward. Not numbers in a banker's computer. If you want a better life, wasting or hoarding your money produces NOTHING. Use it to support welfare, education, research, and freedom of expression. Your marketing department could be doing what it REALLY wants to do: real entertainment, real product research, and real education.
From: "H. Mencken" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.libertarian,sci.econ,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.usa.republican,misc.taxes,rec.collecting.paper-money,misc.invest.stocks,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.radical-left,misc.invest,talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: STOCK MARKET = PYRAMID SCHEME Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:35:35 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Ryan Berryman wrote: > The economics of perfect markets boil down to TWO inputs : Labor AND > Capital; not just labor. The stock market is a function of the latter. Capital and labor simply exist. What can be done with that capital and labor depends simply on the laws of the land. You can either have an autocracy, or you can have a democracy. Unanimous democracy creates communism. Majority democracy creates socialism. Autocracy creates capitalism. TRUE freedom of expression protects everyone.
From: "H. Mencken" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.economics,sci.econ,misc.taxes,alt.politics.democrats.d,rec.collecting.paper-money,misc.invest.stocks,misc.invest,talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: STOCK MARKET = PYRAMID SCHEME Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:05:47 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Guru George wrote: > Why would they bother to stock food if nobody paid them for it? > Why would they bother producing electricity if nobody paid them for > it? Why would they bother going to work if they didn't get paid? It's called exchanging your EFFORT for someone else's EFFORT. Currency is merely a way to facilitate that. Digging up gold isn't REALLY different from counterfeiting. So who decides how much your labor is worth? In a true democracy, a vote does. Whether it's a vote by your underlings, your customers, or society in general depends on your version of democracy. If it's a vote by dollar, then the rich are more equal. If it's a vote by shares, still, the rich are more equal... and thus we have this wonderful pyramid because everyone is trying to buy power... all the small investors playing scavengers and getting in the way of real hostile takeovers.
From: "Z. Beeblebrox" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.economics,sci.econ,misc.taxes,alt.politics.usa.republican,rec.collecting.paper-money,misc.invest.stocks,misc.invest,talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: STOCK MARKET = PYRAMID SCHEME Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:22:36 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. LawkinsRobert wrote: > >Stocks, banks, land. All fake wealth. REAL wealth is within > >ourselves. Cliche? No. Real wealth is labor, real wealth is > >thought. Real wealth is how many friends you have that will > >help you grow food or build a shelter. The world is full of > >people. But capitalism has turned them all into our enemies > >instead of our friends. > You are confusing self-worth with wealth. If what you say is true then > China is a very wealthy nation. Try comparing the standard of living > between the U.S. and China or some under-industrialized, non-democratic, > non-capitalistic socialist nation. How are you defining a standard of living? How many glow-in-the-dark-airplanes you get out of each cereal box? How many different shades of lipstick you can buy? How many different sauces you can put on your burger? Evolution defines it as how able each person is able to survive. It is knowledge and education that currently allows humans to survive so much better than before. But capitalists love to hide as much knowledge as they can behind trade secrets and patents, just for personal profit, just so they can laugh at all the stupid starving idiots in third world nations. > The world will always have conflict. If anything, capitalism has helped > resolve that capitalism in a more civilized manner. Wrong. Democracy, no matter how flawed, has helped resolve conflict in a more civilized manner. Capitalism is what enables the wealthy to pervert democracy with campaign contributions and lobby groups. Even a 51% democracy is not enough however. The true solution is to constantly take power away from those who have it, and give it those who don't - mobs, armies, political and economic autocrats.
From: "Z. Beeblebrox" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.libertarian,sci.econ,alt.politics.usa.republican,misc.taxes,rec.collecting.paper-money,misc.invest.stocks,alt.society.labor-unions,misc.invest,talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: STOCK MARKET = PYRAMID SCHEME Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 23:10:47 -0800 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. j.s.t wrote: > What you are describing is similar to what happened in the 1930-34 > time frame, although not that complete, and in different ways in > different countries. In America things became dirt cheap, just > none of that cash to process those transactions with! In Germany > everything was crazy expensive, agin not enough of that cash > to process those transactions with... hyperdeflation or hyperinflation > do the same thing in the end... hammer the financial markets... > and yes sooner or more likely later things will pick up again. In fact "financial markets" have little do with anything. All you need is an incentive to work. The collapse of any currency has little to do with whether anyone is still able to work, it just means you have created the illusion that their work is no longer valuable... which is of course false. The value of currency should be based on labor, not the other way around.
From: "Kevin E. Bertsch" kbertsch@istar.ca Newsgroups: alt.politics.economics,sci.econ,misc.taxes,rec.collecting.paper-money,misc.invest.stocks,misc.invest,talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: STOCK MARKET = PYRAMID SCHEME Date: 14 Mar 1997 20:05:18 GMT Organization: Phonettix Intelecom Well, there's been a lot of tub-thumping in this thread..here's another take: Some economists I spoke to a few years ago were big fans of 'game theory'. Their historical and theoretical research had led them to the conclusion that the way societies distribute wealth resembles a game where the more money you have when you start, the better your chance of winning (note well!they said 'better' not 'guaranteed' chance). Thus, over repeated plays of a game, the wealthy invariably win more than they lose, and hence on average become wealthier. In the extreme, a very few wealthy people own everything while everyone else is poor. At that point in time, the poor revolt via war, insurrection, what have you, the whole structure is brought crashing down, and the game starts again. What was really astounding (to me, at any rate), was their assertion (and I do apologise for not remembering their names..) that this occurred REGARDLESS of the social structure or economic paradigm of the country. Thus, it happens in absolute monarchies, theocracies, dictatorships, democracies, and in capitalist, socialist, communist, feudal, and other societies. Now, the stats I've seen suggest the wealthy are getting even more of the national income in virtually every western country.. I wonder what that means? Kevin
From: Donald J Smith djsmith2@ix.netcom.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.economics,sci.econ,alt.politics.usa.republican,misc.taxes,rec.collecting.paper-money,misc.invest.stocks,misc.invest,talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: STOCK MARKET = PYRAMID SCHEME Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:23:33 -0800 Organization: Netcom J. Hancock wrote: > eztrader@usit.net wrote: > > >> Imagine if you woke up tomorrow and all the money in the world > > >> had disappeared. All stocks, all bonds, all the numbers in a > > >> banker's computer. The end of the world? Will you die? Will > > >> investors be jumping out of windows? No. Your house is still > > >> there (or at least the house you say is yours). Supermarkets > > >> still have food. Electric companies can still produce > > >> electricity. The world would only end if people stopped going > > >> to work. It would only end if mass destruction follows. If > > >> people burned houses and smashed computers. If human lives > > >> are wasted in violence. Knowledge is still there, labor is > > >> still there. Real products can STILL be produced. So what > > >> does happen if everyone suddenly dumped their stock and all > > >> life savings went to zero? Probably not much if people kept > > >> their cool. It's time this pyramid scheme was revealed as the > > >> get rich quick scam that it is. The emperor has no clothes. > > Hey ever heard of WARREN BUFFET??? > > Get a life !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Indeed many, many people have made a lot of money in the > stock market, in pyramid schemes, and in the lottery. > Most are afraid to admit to themselves that it's > theoretically impossible for everyone to be rich IN THIS > WAY. It IS however possible for everyone to be richer > than they are now by the spreading of information and > technology. Capital such as this should be used > responsibly, to educate the world, so that more knowledge > can be produced and universally shared. > ----- > "The attempt to silence a man is the greatest honor you > can bestow on him. It means that you recognize his > superiority to yourself." -- J. Sobran To: J Hancock.............I'm anxious to see the responses you get on this. I think it will some people some pause to construct a rational answer. Your right, of course. All the numbers could disappear tomarrow; but the factories and the roads and the cars and the fertile earth are all still there. Kind of hard to understand why there would be any big problem. Obviously, the same people who are rich now would begin again to get wealthy, but that's OK; they're the ones who make things happen. Don J Smith

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