SMOKESCREEN
Rant


From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.socialism,alt.current-events.usa,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.reform,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress Subject: Re: "Greenscam" is Misusing the Federal Reserve Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:07:55 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Larry L. Jansen wrote: > This is not free trade, but managed trade; that favors the > multinational companies, at the expense of our domestic producers. > This is clearly not in the national interest, and is an act of > Treason! And what's so wrong with treason? The leakage of American atomic secrets into other countries was the best possible thing that could've happened to this world, or we'd have a whole lot more radioactive craters in various parts of the world today. The fact is that the Fed is trying its damdest to keep this economy going under capitalism because capitalist idiots like you refuse to give it up. And so we have the lamest attempts at random number crunching, just to keep unemployment and inflation at "just the right level". Whether producers are domestic or "multinational" is a moot question. The real question is whether we get to trade useless bits of shiny rocks and flowery paper for real products like food and raw materials at the point of a gun. The whole capitalist system is one big fucking mess and you wonder why nobody likes Americans. -------- Only capitalists see the emperor's new clothes.
15.4.97 Rich people demanding and everybody demanding. From: "W. Wonka" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.economics,or.politics,sci.econ,alt.society.labor-unions,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.democrats.d,talk.politics,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: "Progressive Taxation" - The Irony Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 15:33:33 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. John Flanery wrote: > But where do they get that power? If I assert that power comes from the > short supply of, and great demand for, experienced CEOs, how will you > refute me? > > Access to the job of CEO is based on much more than competence. There > > are many who would be willing to take a crack at the job for much > > less. :-} > Perhaps. And perhaps they would provide better value for the money (I > take no position on that). But until they can convince the Boards of > Directors who hire CEOs of that, those Boards will continue to want CEOs > with experience. Like a bunch of lords, dukes, barons, and counts in search of the next great king. And guess what? They really DO manage to find a king that works out real well for those same lords, dukes, barons, and counts. DILLWEED! Nations don't succeed because deluded royalty picks the next monarch. Nations succeed because EVERYBODY picks the next "monarch." Slavery doesn't build much enthusiasm. ------ "Feudalism - it's your count that votes!"
From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.economics,or.politics,sci.econ,alt.society.labor-unions,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: "Progressive Taxation" - The Irony Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:59:12 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. John Flanery wrote: > > Who has the most clout to get > > themselves increasing incomes? Answer, the CEO's and Movers-and-Shakers > > like Eisner, etc. Now, could it be that because of the progressive tax > > rates, we have given them more leverage to justify to the Boards of > > Directors the escalation in their salaries and other compensation. > Don, wages are set by supply and demand. If there is more demand than > supply, prices go up. The demand for experienced CEOs has risen faster > than the supply, so the wages have gone up. It has nothing to do with > taxes. Like the demand for experienced Kings and Emperors is great as well. There's a difference between rich people doing the demanding and EVERYBODY doing the demanding. That difference is the same difference between monarchy and democracy.
14.4.97 Was and is broken. From: "J. Calvin" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: soc.retirement,talk.politics.theory,sci.econ,alt.politics.economics,misc.invest.stocks,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.libertarian,misc.invest.financial,alt.politics.radical-left,misc.invest.misc,alt.society.labor-unions,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: The Great Inflation Lie Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 15:16:12 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Ernest Moosa wrote: > You only need to read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand to get an excellent > grasp of the "Law of Opposite Intentions". Free Enterprise works, and > the markets should be left alone, regardless of which market we are > talking about. > The reason that the experts are missing the stregths of this economy is > because we have never had free markets until recently. Get a clue. Rand was an ass-kisser who couldn't get anything published without pandering to those in power. All the idiots in the world confuse the goal with the reward. Every reward, whether a leaf, a rock, NaCl, or a shiny statue starts out as an attempt to promote excellence, and at the same time, promote its giver. At first, nobody cares about the reward, but as more and more "excellent" people become associated with the reward, the reward itself gets famous. Soon people enslave themselves just to get that reward and completely forget why that reward was created in the first place. Free markets aren't the goal. Investment isn't the goal. Savings aren't the goal. Fame and fortune are NOT the goal. Not even employment is the goal. ------ To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first, and call whatever you hit the target.
From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.libertarian,soc.retirement,alt.society.labor-unions,sci.econ,alt.politics.economics,misc.invest.stocks,alt.politics.radical-left,misc.invest.financial,alt.politics.socialism,misc.invest.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh Subject: Re: The Great Inflation Lie Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:59:43 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Richard Cline wrote: > Thanks for the thoughtful comments. Clearly we are now involved in an > international marketplace and one must view this with any fiscal policy. > If we allow inflation - we quickly price ourselves out of the market. Even > now one must wonder how much of our present economic health is > dependent on the flood of immigrants willing to work for low wages. > The claims that these people take jobs from citizens must be tempered > with the fact that unemployment is near all time lows. > We shouldn't oversimplify the economy. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Wake up, it WAS and IS broken. Unemployment is low. We're exporting more and more. We're importing less and less. Only capitalists cheer at self-imposed slavery. The point of civilization isn't to get everybody doing busy work. The point of civilization is to free everybody FROM busy work to go do what they REALLY want to do.
14.4.97 In pursuit of The Capitalist Dream. From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.flame.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.europe,alt.society.labor-unions,soc.culture.canada,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.government.abuse,soc.couples.intercultural,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.mexican,soc.culture.europe,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa.constitution,soc.culture.african.american Subject: Re: P.S.: Education IS a (MORAL) RIGHT! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 14:44:47 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Mycroft wrote: > But I was under the apparently false impression that you were > a competent adult. Of course I've had adults in my computer > literacy class who've had trouble with simple concepts. > How many times have to tell people "there is no ANY-KEY"? "But, but, how can you expect ignorant peasants to understand all the finer points of court intrigue?" asked the King. The fact is, it's not the "students" that should change, it's the computer program. That program is only a piece of crap because autocratic decision makers refused to listen to customers. Actually, the real truth is that autocratic "UI designers" were creating busy work for themselves, for fear of losing their own jobs. Capitalist education is sham. Useless SAT words are taught simply to keep teachers employed. "The Grapes of Wrath" is read only to hint at communism. Why not just come right out and say it? This is a free country isn't it? The answer is no. Teachers are as afraid of saying what they feel as much as students are afraid of saying what they feel, because political autocracy has been replaced by economic and educational autocracy.
From: "W. Hearst" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,sci.econ,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.flame.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.europe,alt.nuke.the.USA,soc.culture.canada,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.folklore.military,alt.government.abuse,soc.couples.intercultural,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.mexican,soc.culture.europe,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.noam-chomsky,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa.constitution,soc.culture.african.american Subject: Re: P.S.: Education IS a (MORAL) RIGHT! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:51:17 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Alan Miles wrote: > Gosh, I guess it isn't possible to go to College just to learn stuff and > to become a critical thinker. I don't know a single College classmate > of mine who majored in something just to get a job. Every little girl wants to be a ballerina, every little boy wants to be a fireman. Then they get that math degree and go work on Wall Street. How many little kids ever said, "I want to be a stock broker when I grow up?" Potential stock brokers don't go into the job WANTING to be bean-counters. They do it in hopes that they can earn enough money so that they wouldn't HAVE TO BE bean-counters. And the next thing you know, you look up from your beans with a head full of white hair and blood pressure so high you'd given up on racquetball. The best years of your life wasted in pursuit of The Capitalist Dream. What do you have to show for it? A portfolio of colorful numbers and snazzy charts.
From: Peter Ballantine Steve.Suzanne@worldnet.att.net Newsgroups: alt.society.labor-unions Subject: Re: dumbing-down skilled trades Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 07:43:28 -0700 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services WERVON wrote: > I belong to local 594, at GMC TVC. These people are classified > Experimental Vehicle Buiders, and I can't believe they belong to skilled > trades. These people are nothing more than assemblers. The job requires no > more than the ability to read and write. It is strickly an assembly job. > No skills are required,PERIOD!! > There is no layout, no welding ,no drilling, no electrical, no nothing! > The apprentice program is a joke. They are requared to take basic > automotice classes, EDITED-sorry couldn't take anymore... Hmmm...the job requires no more than the ability to read and write, huh? Well, looks like the big bad union must be protecting you. The word is "strictly" not "strickly", "required" not "requared" and "automotive" not "automotice". Kinda sloppy work for a "skilled tradesman", even if they are only typos, not mis-spellings. (Yeah, yeah...I know all about "netiquette" and the rule against commenting on spelling...well, go complain to Miss Manners...I think solidarity outweighs etiquette in this case...) Since you claim to be able to read, go read some labor history and find out all the destruction and infighting that "skilled" versus "unskilled" has caused the working class. And go look up the quote by that steel labor baron- "I can hire half of the working class to kill the other half". A former-assembler, now a skilled trademan, but first a union man.
13.4.97 Simply because of overactive hormones. From: "M. Luther" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.radical-left,sci.econ,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.society.labor-unions,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.medicine,alt.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: How much does national heatth care cost? Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 19:55:48 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Henry Blaskowski wrote: > Maybe any Marxist economics teacher will tell you that, but this > interesting bit of theology seems to ignore the nature of voluntary > transactions. If I have malaria and I go to the hospital > and get cured, the hospital gets money and I get to live. > Where is the loser in this transaction? The loser, of course, is that if malaria is ever wiped off the face of this planet, all the malaria drug manufacturers will lose their jobs. Likewise, if we ever invent a cure for AIDS, sure, it will be used to totally wipe out AIDS in *this* country. But it will then be used as an opium to enslave all the lower class countries. At least it will give us the "moral" high ground over all those Latin American drug manufacturing companies.
From: "W. Hearst" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.socialism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.medicine,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: How much does national heatth care cost? Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:11:12 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. drifter@gxl.com wrote: > Stantan youre an idiot if you actually think that socialized medical care > works. Look at Canada see how many people are waiting for medical > treatment. Some get it and most don't.. So you keep on supporting Wilhem > and Brunhilliary Klinton's social-liberal ways And see how far in the > hole our nation goes. And the mystery continues: why is it that so many European countries have life expectancies better than Americans? Duh. Socialized health care and socialism in general. Not ONLY are more people able to "afford" health care, but increased welfare and education spending also reduces crime. China and India aren't so populous simply because of overactive hormones. They are simply because they share wealth. Americans, of course, want huge tax cuts, so they can take that money and spend it on bidets and fuzzy dice. We don't need more medical investment. Who lives forever anyway?
From: Jim Mork jimmork1@PioneerPlanet.infi.net Newsgroups: sci.econ Subject: Re: Economic Reductionism Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 08:55:11 -0700 Organization: InfiNet > It is my belief that much > lower government spending and debt ratios is in the future economic > interest of our young generation. This is part of the problem. Like so many, you are focusing on what has become a popular scapegoat for our social problems since WWII: government. You are looking for a solution from the biggest source of the problem: business. As though somehow economic growth, pursued single-mindedly can somehow remedy what that single-minded pursuit has produced. Jesus said "The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath." Well, I'd also like to point out that human welfare is the goal, business is ONE of the tools. When business becomes the goal and humans the tool, then life has become inverted. That, in fact, is exactly what has happened over the last century in America, and we find ourselves in a lot of trouble that has no solution. We have the world's leading population of prisoners and are told that what is needed is a huge new prison-building program. Now if we were taking forty pills a day and the doctors said "Your problem is under-medication" at least some of us would have some forebodings about the doctors. And we should be relooking at our overall approach to problems when told that worshipping wealth is no problem and lets start spending billions on more prisons. And meanwhile, both the executive and legislative branches of our government are being sold off and NONE of those receiving bribes are going to jail. In fact, Mitch McConnell is complaining that his bribes don't begin to be big enough. So, where we differ is simply this: Your exclusive focus on government size as somehow the source of the problem. Our government is one of the SMALLER ones in the world. Our crime problems are one of the LARGER ones. To me, this is reminiscent of families in trouble who find the smallest weakest member of the family and blame all the troubles on him. The FAA is so weak, it can't even do its job. Same with the Federal Trade Commission and the Food and Drug Administration. Yet the reductionists constantly say,"I do nothing wrong, its the government". I think this couldnt work in any place where common sense still had some influence. But this kind of scapegoating works in a nation founded upon rebellion against a tyrannical government. What this brings to mind are people who are still in teenage rebellion in the 40's, still reacting to every authority issue as though their parent was telling them to take out the garbage and be home by 9. Its reductionism, and its perpetual childhood. We need BADLY to mature out of that and start realizing how much we've let be stolen by our simplistic reliance upon wealth as a solution to problems. We all know of rich families with big problems, and we also have heard all our lives how strong families survived poverty through love and principle. The con man always relies on the rigid ideas of the mark.....
From: "W. Hearst" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.usa.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.conspiracy,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.current-events.usa,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.reform,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress Subject: Re: Jewish Mafia Controls America Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 19:03:28 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Larry L. Jansen wrote: > David Rockefeller and his gang of thieves are rich and powerful > people, but they are still criminals and not above the law. > The G-7 is nothing more than a consortium of crooks headed by > "Rob" Rubin. They conspire to fix exchange rates that benefit > multinational companies. This is not free trade, but managed > trade, that operates to the detriment of our domestic producers. > This is Treason! > The Federal Reserve -- headed by another Jew -- fixes interest > rates that enrich the bankers, at the expense of the American > people. You mean the Male Mafia Controls America. Christ, get a life. After a few years, it will be Asians. After that, it will be Russians. Followed by Arabs and native Africans. It's whatever the most recent wave of immigrants is, simply because immigrants are the least complacent people in any country. But you know what REALLY controls America? Fear. EVERYONE on top KNOWS that democratic communism is only the direction to head in for true prosperity. HOWEVER, they live in fear of all the complete IDIOTS like you, who can't take any fucking hints, so they have to constantly backtrack their changes. They keep waiting for the day for the rest of us to realize that political and economic competition are the most inefficient systems on earth, but no. The media tells us we're criminals, the media tells us we're terrorists. Not. Big business is using violence as a threat to our politicians, perpetuating terrorism simply by reporting it, and making big business itself afraid of terrorism. ----- I'm surrounded by scarecrows, lions, and tin men.
From: "W. Hearst" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.current-events.usa,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.activism,alt.society.liberalism Subject: Re: Ark. church blasts working moms Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 18:33:24 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. > ->> > LITTLE ROCK, Ark. (AP) -- The First Baptist Church > ->> > of Berryville has closed its day care center, > ->> > saying working mothers neglect their children, > ->> > damage their marriages and set a bad example. And working fathers neglect their children as well. The only reason capitalists are against working moms is that it will put males out of work. The only reason Christianity keeps splintering off into differing sects is because each church is in search of the next Great Empty Market. New version of beliefs = new business opportunity. Why do you think these various factions can't even agree on the wording of the 10 Commandments? The Olde Church banned the Bible with the Index for the same reason capitalists hide behind trade secrets and nations hide behind "national security" secrets - fear of competition.
From: "W. Hearst" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,sci.econ,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.socialism,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.conservatism,talk.politics,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.current-events.usa,alt.president.clinton,alt.society.liberalism,misc.taxes Subject: Re: Welfare Reform Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:05:50 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Henry Blaskowski wrote: > What does the "heat" of the economy have to do with inflation? > Inflation is a money supply issue, not an economic activity issue. > The government should not be in the business of trying to control > economic activity to suit its monetary whims; in fact, just the > opposite is true -- it should control the money supply to match > economic activity. Inflation is the capitalist's Holy Ghost. The easiest way to fight inflation, help the poor, and advance civilization at the same time is simple. More welfare spending lowers consumer demand for all the essential goods. Thus prices fall, at least for all the important things. More welfare and education spending produces a better work force, better able to move society forward with better labor and new ideas... less reliance on crime to get ahead. So who is hurt in the process? Lawyers, law enforcement, penal workers. Under capitalism, less crime means less work for them to do. Forcing them into unemployment.
10.4.97 These are the only ones. 14.4.97 He taught it out of practicality. 18.4.97 Vengeance is more practical today. From: "W. Bagger" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.activism,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.youth,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.activism.youth-rights,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.socialism,soc.culture.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.rights.human,sci.econ,alt.activism.death-penalty,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: Abolish The Death Penalty Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 20:23:09 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Austin W. Spencer wrote: > > Is it practical to support a murderer for the rest of his life? > > Is it practical to shoot him on the spot? > > Is it practical to threaten murderers with death, thus forcing > > them into more crime, just to avoid it? > agrees that #2 is not ethical. There is some question whether the > situation in #3 even exists. #3 certainly exists with respect to the Great Campaign Finance Reform Scandal of 1997. Sure the stakes aren't nearly as high as death, but why do you think our politicians waste so much time pointing fingers instead of solving the problems we're paying them to solve? Fear of punishment. Everybody wants to redirect the crosshairs. Nobody thinks about putting down the gun. > > Human evolved compassion because compassion IS practical. > > No wasted resources on punishment. No wasted resources on > > hunting people down. > As if resources aren't wasted on compassion (i.e., by using it on > hopeless cases, or -- if you want to take the dim view of it -- by simply > donating to charity). In other words, you can pay one group of subordinates to go try and kill another group of subordinates, or you can pay both groups to go to school and produce some useful knowledge for a change. Knowledge, of course, is the bane of a capitalist economy. Too much efficiency creates unemployment. ---------- And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, one girl sitting on her own in a small cafe in Rickmansworth suddenly realized what it was that had been going wrong all this time... This is not her story.
From: "W. Wonka" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.activism,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.youth,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.activism.youth-rights,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.socialism,soc.culture.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.rights.human,sci.econ,alt.activism.death-penalty,alt.politics.economics Subject: Re: Abolish The Death Penalty Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 16:24:22 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. M. Anderson wrote: > Is the issue really if we were wrong in convicting someone and sent them > to the death penalty, or that we murdered someone? I am torn on both > sides. I feel for the families of the victims who are left without a > daughter/son or father/mother, whatever the case may be. However, I > wonder is this is the kind of frame of mind we want to base our judical > system and laws in. Do want an emotional one or a more rational one? It's a question of vengeance, compassion, and practicality. Is it practical to support a murderer for the rest of his life? Is it practical to shoot him on the spot? Is it practical to threaten murderers with death, thus forcing them into more crime, just to avoid it? Human evolved compassion because compassion IS practical. No wasted resources on punishment. No wasted resources on hunting people down. Early humans valued the lives of anyone they could communicate with. Why? Because back then, someone you could teach and learn from could HELP you survive. Back before capitalism, back before someone with any intelligence would put you out of a job. With the rise of capitalism and the "competition for work," compassion became useless. You teach someone, she steals your job. Thus vengeance is a more practical emotion today than compassion. With the rise of a society based on competition rather than on cooperation, morality has become a hinderance rather than a boon.
From: "J. Hancock" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.activism,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.youth,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.activism.youth-rights,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics.socialism,soc.rights.human,alt.politics.economics,alt.activism.death-penalty Subject: Re: Abolish The Death Penalty Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:56:48 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Fable Slayer wrote: > In your kind of world I would own nothing you would own nothing so therefor > the reason to work and strive for a better life is gone. Is that the kind > of world you want to live in? Where you never get the chance to own your > home, car, land or anything else? Wrong. Striving for a better life becomes a goal in itself. Why do you think political and economic researchers waste so much time at the books, if not trying to end poverty and warfare? (At least the idealistic ones still do.) The fact that you want to OWN that brand new Ferrari is probably 90% due to commercial advertising, to impress the chicks (they too are victims of commercial advertising). A capitalist society impresses peers with purchasing power. An intelligent society impresses peers by helping society. > And YES the death penalty is a deterrent > the animal being put to death will never hurt anyone again. The problem is > the cost of ALL the appeals that people like you have put in the way of the > public doing what wants. Ah yes, it comes down to costs. If you're going to be executed anyway for killing someone, why not just kill a few more? Make sure they never catch you. If you're going to jail for bribery anyway, why not hand out a few more? Make sure they never catch you. STUPID! Jesus didn't teach forgiveness out of compassion. He taught it out of practicality. Punishment only wastes valuable resources in division instead of cooperation. Of course, under capitalism, we wouldn't want our police officers and prison workers to be unemployed now would we? They might turn to a life of crime. ------ I didn't come to this hockey game to see any hockey.
From: "W. Hearst" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.activism,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.youth,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.activism.youth-rights,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.usa,soc.rights.human,alt.activism.death-penalty Subject: Re: Abolish The Death Penalty Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:30:14 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. T.E. wrote: > Far more executions are products of communist countries. In fact, just > disagreeing with communist goverments is grounds for exection. It happens > in China everyday. Your buddy Stalin executed millions of people. Whether a nation shares or competes for wealth hardly matters. Executions happen under autocracies. Governments that do not believe in free speech, governments that silence opponents with imprisonment, governments that do not believe in democracy, governments that do not believe it's own ideals can stand up in a reasonable debate. These are the ONLY ones that engage in execution.
From: zeppp@snowcrest.net (Zepp) Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.current-events.usa,alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics,alt.politics.socialism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.society.liberalism Subject: America declines as people do without to feed wealthy! Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 08:36:41 GMT Organization: SnowCrest Net On Sat, 12 Apr 1997 23:34:09 +0100, feline feline@cableinet.co.uk wrote: >Lew Glendenning wrote: >> The sample size of fascist nations is quite small. The sample of >> socialist/communist nations is larger, but probably large enough for >> some statistical test, comparing characteristics of Fascism and >> socialist/communist nations. >> So, careful definition of dimensions of measurements, and points on each >> scale for each country. >The problem, Mr Glendenning, is that Libertarians exhibit a palpable >ignorance of political theory and of historical precedent. In the >majority of contexts where rational debate occurs, the abject failure of >Libertarian doctrine, to distinguish basic political and theoretical >positions would be considered laughable. >Consider for instance fascisms equation of capitalist social democracy >with communism. There was a writeup that shows just how badly we are faring as we move in the direction of "open market" freedom that Reagan and Lew and all the rest keep tell us will make us free and wealthy and happy. The source is an odd one--Parade magazine. Parade, like Reader's Digest, likes to thump the tub for gingham dresses and oldy-time countrymusic values and features ads of smaltzy "collectables". Not much chance THIS outfit is gonna qualify as left-wing, or even liberal. So when they had a piece today on where America is number one and where it isn't, I glanced through it, expecting to see paeans of praise for conservative Christian values and how they saved us from the goddless commies and so forth. I owe Parade an apology. They didn't try to pretend it was morning in America, and everything was just hunky-dory. In fact, they came right out, and butressed with quotes from folks like Louis Riech, say, "folks, we have a serious problem, and fat cat greed is the problem". A few of the stats they presented. Tax burden on income: 11th in the world. Corporate Tax rate: 70th (Pay your taxes so the rich don't have to.) Home ownership: 29th (28 countries outdo us on "The American Dream") Difference between top 10% in income and lowest 10%: 2nd (behind only Russia) Guns: #1. Imports of Guns: #1 Exports of Guns: #1 Military weapons exports: #1. Imports: #3. (We do death VERY well!) Waste products: #1 Divorce rate #2 Infant death rate: #29 (from 13th in 1986) Life expectancy: 15th for women, 22nd for men. And the Tax Revolt morons and the Libertarians, who have ripped off the American dream, want us to stay the course, so SOMEONE will be happier, healthier, richer and more secure. The only problem is, it won't be 90% of us. ===================================================================== Liberals tend to be happy and outgoing because they figure most people are much like themselves. Conservatives tend to be hostile and paranoid for pretty much the same reason. Libertarians crouch behind their sofas and wait for their dogs to give the order to shoot. Novus Ordo Seclorum Volpus de Marina ===================================================================== When replying by e-mail, remove the third "P" placed there to foil spambots.
From: Peter Ballantine suesteve@mars.superlink.net Newsgroups: alt.society.labor-unions Subject: Re: Union Man Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:30:54 -0700 Organization: SuperNet Inc. (908) 828-8988 tom brennan wrote: > I just started looking at this group today and so far have seen damn > little about unionism. I've seen a lot of nonsense by free-market types > trying to tell me that what is good for me is really bad for me. Tom, don't despair- it's hard going but there are some useful posts here. Most of those long threads and/or anything cross-posted to numerous newsgroups are garbage but look around and the real labor people are here, too. I guess all those "free-market types" and the other right-wing kooks have a lot of time on their hands (or, more likely, are white collar computer-wage slaves and stealing the boss' time). I mean, they have a newsgroup of fans of Rush Limbaugh, after all. UAW member > What's > good for me are high wages, safe conditions, good benefits and a say in > what goes on at work. My union provides me with these things. Non-union > people in my line of work make far less money, have poor conditions and > benefits and are worked like rented mules. Maybe I'd be better off like > that? I've been a Union Man 27 years and my union has allowed me to live > a good life in materialistic terms and has also given me a brotherhood > to believe in and fight for. All this has been good for me and no > lickspittle, head-nodding, knee-scraping apologist for the powerfull can > easily convince me otherwise. > Tom Brennan Boilermakers > Local 1 Chicago
9.4.97 Physical evolution all but ceases. From: "C. Kane" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.noam-chomsky Subject: Re: Social Dawinism..Survival of the Smartest... Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:10:35 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. scotterb@maine.maine.edu wrote: > >Incorrect. Intelligent life only evolves physically to the > >point at which it has mastered manual manipulation and > >education. At that point, physical evolution all but ceases. > You are at odds with most biologists on this point. Do you have any evidence > for hypothesis (also, you should word these things as hypotheses, rather than > assertions of truth). Capitalist biologists come in one of 3 classifications: 1. Too afraid of losing their job, they invent busy work for themselves, giving long Latin names to everything on the planet, and then go looking for new things to give long Latin names to. 2. Manipulated by the capitalist love of competition into making up race theories to satisfy their own prejudices. 3. Afraid that retaliation from fundamentalists will cut their funding, they avoid studying the evolution of religious and political philosophy. The reason societies in warm climates are dominated by societies from cold climates is simple. Those in warm climates have all they need to survive and grow complacent. They never form a complex social structure because they don't need one; food is plentiful. In a cold climate, the need to work together is much more important in order for every member of society to survive. Thus they go beyond tribal living and form larger political systems. This increase in communication is what passes knowledge around, knowledge that is much more vital in a harsh environment. In the end, it's only an evolution of the philosophy pool rather than the gene pool.
From: "C. Kane" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.noam-chomsky Subject: Re: Social Dawinism..Survival of the Smartest... Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 18:50:50 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. scotterb@maine.maine.edu wrote: > >The question has arisen, whether or not such a thing as social > >darwinism exists. > The question was answered long ago with a resounding "no". > rather stupid can learn basics to survive and reproduce in society. Finally, > there is no reason one "society" should survive over another in the world. Incorrect. Intelligent life only evolves physically to the point at which it has mastered manual manipulation and education. At that point, physical evolution all but ceases. What then becomes selected for are the philosophies of the social group. It started with religion and continues with political theory. Philosophies that hinder cooperation are doomed to failure. Thus the majority of religions remaining today all have the common values of altruism and a ban on homicide. Social groups formed in order to share information and effort. Thus the most successful nations today either share power through democracy or share wealth through communism.
9.4.97 Good thing, right? 10.4.97 The worst thing that can happen. 11.4.97 Telling you that you should want. From: "W. Hearst" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.libertarian,or.politics,sci.econ,alt.society.labor-unions,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: Alan Greenspan- The Fed- Inflation Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 13:41:11 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. David G. Hughey wrote: > Wealth may be best defined as value one person places on something > another person owns or controls. If I have it, and no one wants it, its > value (other than some sort of intrinsic non-quantifiable sentimental > value) is nothing. And the vast majority of the capitalist's definition of wealth is artificially derived from marketing. Why do you think the world's ugliest art is worth so much? Fact is, our great abstract, cubist, etc artists were communists. Their biggest joke on their patrons was fooling them into placing value on the lamest pieces of effortless creation. Of course, their original patrons were more shrewd than that. They offered high prices for these art pieces simply out of spite against the communist tendencies of these artists. It's only their descendants that actually think they see the emperor's new clothes.
From: "W. Hearst" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.economics,or.politics,alt.society.labor-unions,sci.econ,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: Alan Greenspan- The Fed- Inflation Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 15:22:53 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. > Henry Blaskowski wrote: > > > Once consumers have all the products they ever wanted, they stop > > > buying. Suddenly, profits plunge, and companies will have to > > > lay off workers again. > > Of course, consumers will *never* have everything they want, because > > wants are like closet space -- you always need just a little more. > > People tend not to be satisfied, no matter what their lifestyle. > > When I had roommates, all I wanted was a place to myself. When I had > > a Ford Escort, all I wanted was a car that worked. Once I got a > > car that worked, I wanted one with AC and a CD player. Now that I > > have a nice house, I want it to be in Malibu, on the beach. Ah, so that is where marketing comes in. Do you REALLY want it, or is that just your TV telling you that you SHOULD want it? The value people place on products in a capitalist society is based on one big propaganda machine: commercial advertising. If it weren't for random access, would a tape player be THAT much worse than a CD player? Is a cell phone that weighs 10% less than another cell phone REALLY worth twice the price? ---- A capitalist society impresses peers with purchasing power. An intelligent society impresses peers by helping society.
From: "W. Hearst" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.libertarian,or.politics,sci.econ,alt.society.labor-unions,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.economics Subject: Re: Alan Greenspan- The Fed- Inflation Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 17:17:40 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Donald J Smith wrote: > > >So why don't we just export all the extra goods to foreign > > >nations? Because foreign economists will accuse us of > > >dumping goods and putting their own manufacturers out of > > >work. Thus, they have to raise tariffs despite the fact > > >that we have made goods cheaper. > > They may indeed complain, just as America does. However the real > > exchange rate dictates the price of the goods. And how have we made > > them cheaper? Say we arbitrarily make them cheaper, like Japan did to us. If our "overheated" economy is producing far too many goods, why not just export them at low prices? You'd think these foreign countries would cheer if we went so far as to GIVE them goods for FREE. But NO. Under capitalism, that is the WORST thing that can happen to their economy. Massive unemployment. Only under capitalism is increased production a bad thing. > > > Capitalism is SO stupid. > To: Jay and the Others.................No! Capitalism is not stupid. > It's the greatest producer of wealth ever known. What's stupid is to > allow Greenspan to control things. You mean wealth as defined by pyramid schemes. Wealth in terms of what? Number of paper bills? Amount of "precious" metals? Fancy art? Wealth as defined by evolution is how able each member of that society can survive the next hazard nature throws at her - health care, welfare, education, REAL productive equipment, NOT fuzzy dice or pumpable sneakers.
From: "C. Kane" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory,or.politics,sci.econ,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics,alt.politics.socialism Subject: Re: Alan Greenspan- The Fed- Inflation Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 20:08:28 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. dR.DavE wrote: > >1. How can you have inflation if you don't increase the money supply? If > >you keep the money supply under control, and the price of something goes > >up, doesn't the price of something else have to go down? In other words; > >is Greenspan scamming us? He raises interest rates to "damp inflation". > So Greenspan's fiscal acrobatics keep a bad situation from getting worse. > When he raises interest rates to fend off inflation, what's he's actually > trying to do is fend off spending. Less spending causes less demand, more > supply, and prices fall (theoretically) in order to try to draw buyers back > into the fray. So the next question is, WHY would it be bad for people to buy more? Isn't that why we earn money? In order to BUY THINGS? The answer is that it will "overheat" the economy. More profit for companies means they create more jobs, hire more people, and produce more products. Good thing, right? Wrong. Once consumers have all the products they ever wanted, they stop buying. Suddenly, profits plunge, and companies will have to lay off workers again. So why don't we just export all the extra goods to foreign nations? Because foreign economists will accuse us of dumping goods and putting their own manufacturers out of work. Thus, they have to raise tariffs despite the fact that we have made goods cheaper. Capitalism is SO stupid.
9.4.97 One well meaning autocrat. 10.4.97 Without knowing what democracy is. 16.4.97 19:53 So what if nobody wants to be a janitor? 16.4.97 20:50 Make more out of his hours at work. 16.4.97 20:59 Reconciling capitalist democracy with autocratic communism. 18.4.97 Inevitable self-censorship. 2.5.97 Pretend that's the truth. 3.5.97 Define what a government is. 6.5.97 There is no solution. From: "W. Wonka" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.radical-left,sci.econ,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.economics,soc.men,can.politics,soc.women,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: Democratic socialism vs. Corporate Autocracy Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 15:14:24 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Derek Nalecki wrote: > Producers do not extort money from consumers, those are voluntary transaction. > Don't like the price/goods/looks of the salesman = don't buy. > Consumers do not extort money from the ruling clique. The only money the > latter parts with is that used to buy votes of welfare pimps. > Since your premise is incorrect so is your "solution", right? The capitalist's choice of a company is like the autocrat's choice of a country. Hell, if you don't like it here, feel free to leave on a raft and drown in the ocean. It sure ain't my fault. It's amazing how slavery produces apologists for slavery. Do you actually think women ARE smaller? Physically yes. Genetically no. The fact is, our female ancestors used to be LARGER. THAT is why males have an erect reproductive organ: to avoid being raped by females. So what happened? The mastery of tools happened. Physical size became subordinate to the mastery of tools. The Loser Effect took over. After being opressed during their teenage years, males retaliated by enslaving females. TELLING them to serve. TELLING them to be thin, to be small, to be weak. And thus their daughters starved themselves. ----- In a world lost in propaganda and censorship, the real truth is spoken only by liars and fools.
From: "J. Calvin" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics,talk.politics.theory,sci.econ,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.economics,can.politics,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh Subject: Re: Democratic socialism vs. Corporate Autocracy Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 16:24:18 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Derek Nalecki wrote: > Tee USSR failed because it was both economicly socialist and politically > autocratic/socialist. Fine, fine, if you're going to define socialism by pointing to the USSR or democracy by pointing to the USA, then socialism and democracy can be whatever the fuck you want them to be. > US (and Canada, and the rest of OECD) is held back because our nominally > plural, and civil political system is based the ruling clique buying > political power and influence with money extorted from the producers. And producers extort money from consumers, and consumers extort money from your ruling clique. Solution? Well, actually, there is no solution to inequality of speech as long as there's inequality of wealth. Either you abandon free speech or you abandon wealth inequality. And the next question is how fast to move. ------- Money is more genetic than intelligence.
From: "T. Hobbes" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics,talk.politics.theory,alt.society.labor-unions,can.politics,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,sci.econ,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: Democratic socialism vs. Corporate Autocracy Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 14:03:23 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Bruce Salem wrote: > The problem is, irrespective of the economic system, corruption > and concentration of power. Both are possible in either a socialist > or capitalist economic order, and whether the governent has trappings > of democracy or not. OK, if you want to confuse yourself with "government" versus "non-government" ownership of property, that could indeed be your defining difference between capitalism and socialism. So how do you define what a government is? Obviously, the only organization which can "legally" have a military. In terms of democracy, "ownership" is not the point. Ownership is described in terms of agreement. The difference between capitalism and socialism here, is the difference between economic inequality and economic equality. Your supervisor's salary is determined by vote, and is only greater than everyone else's wage if he's actually doing something nobody wants to do. Supply and demand by voters, not dollars. People only take advantage of "the system" when they feel powerless to affect it. ---- Money is more genetic than intelligence.
From: "M. Luther" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics,talk.politics.theory,alt.society.labor-unions,can.politics,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,sci.econ,alt.politics.economics,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh Subject: Re: Democratic socialism vs. Corporate Autocracy Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 17:28:23 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Derek Nalecki wrote: > >> USSR was not a Civil Society. It was not governed by the rule of law. > >> It respected no human rights. > >You think we have human rights in this country? The fact is, > >it's a human right to hold the court in contempt. It's a human > >right to neither plead guilty nor innocent, to not show up in > >court, to swear not to tell the truth, the whole truth, nor > >anything even resembling the truth. Everyone knows that perjury > >happens in courtrooms across the country all day, everyday. But > >how else is a judge supposed to do his job if he can't force > >people to talk and pretend that's the truth? So we hire armed > >mercenaries. At least it keeps officers employed. How else are > >they going to make a living? Help stop poverty? Help provide > >real free speech for the poor? Nah, there are more "important" > >things to do, like inventing paperwork so you can keep your > >capitalist job. > You seem to have pretty limited scope of argumentation if the intention > of this comment is to imply USSR was somehow "justifiable" just because > our system does not respect basic human rights (life, property, liberty > and pursuit of happiness) either. Correct, the USSR failed because it was a political autocracy. This country is held back because of economic autocracy. If you try to implement democracy without implementing socialism, you will have neither. -------- Freedom of the press belongs to those who own one. - C. Salzenberg
From: "W. Wonka" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,sci.econ,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.reform,can.politics,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.socialism,alt.politics.usa.republican Subject: Re: Democratic socialism vs. Corporate Autocracy, was: Socialism, understanding what it is.. Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 14:57:20 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Joel wrote: > B.s. What makes you think everyone wants to be a > manager. Skilled employees can make handsome salaries > without ever becoming managers. If nobody wants to be a manager then there wouldn't be any backstabbing in search of raises or promotions now would there? No jealousy in the workplace, right? Any corporate structure in which the focus is on employees competing with employees, rather than employees competing with whatever technological problem is at hand, is doomed to eternal bickering, secrecy, and dishonesty. > But some workers' labor IS worth more than others'. > The value of a person's labor is determined by supply > and demand. Supply/demand for some professions is > lower/higher than for others, thus the wage deferrentials. Yes, supply and demand. Who is doing the demanding? Employees? Consumers? Nope. Upper management. It's not REAL supply & demand, no more than a "democracy" that holds human beings as slaves is a real democracy. And you wonder why upper management is so out of touch with employees. Duh. Same reason kings were out of touch with peasants. No matter how "enlightened" that king is, self-censorship is inevitable under autocracy.
From: "W. Wonka" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.reform,can.politics,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.socialism Subject: Re: Democratic socialism vs. Corporate Autocracy, was: Socialism, understanding what it is.. Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:59:37 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. John Parker wrote: > The capitalist system, at least has two centers of power, the rich and > the politicians who are at odds with each other. The socialists would > prefer to place the whole thing in one place. When one stops to think > about it, the system that they are attempting to put in place, > democracy, is the system that, to it's credit has rejected their > agenda in the first place. P'shaw right. Democracy perverted by campaign contributions and lobby groups. A press owned and operated by economic autocrats. If you think the rich and the powerful are two different classes of people, then you probably also think the poor and powerless are two different classes of people. It's amazing how idiots have the ability to reconcile capitalist "democracy" in politics with autocratic "communism" at work. ---------- Don't forget what happened to the man who suddenly got everything he always wanted. He lived happily ever after.
From: "W. Wonka" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.reform,can.politics,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.economics,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.socialism Subject: Re: Democratic socialism vs. Corporate Autocracy, was: Socialism, understanding what it is.. Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:50:14 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Joel wrote: > Are there markets in your version of socialism? If > not, what mechanism determines workers wages? How > does a collective determine the price it will charge > workers in other collectives for its product? It's called a democracy. If your division is given two million, under an autocracy, the autocrat determines the salaries, invariably giving himself the most. Thus everyone wants to be a manager. Only problem is, if EVERYONE is a manager, nothing gets done. An obvious sign that manager wages are too high and worker wages too low. The beauty of a cooperative economy is that if no worker's labor is inherently worth more than another's, then it would be to your BENEFIT to teach another how to make more out of his hours at work, rather than afraid that he'll steal your job if you do. Workers only get lazy if they are not given a chance to change the system by debate, if they do not have the power to completely redistribute revenues from one division to another.
From: "W. Wonka" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.reform,can.politics,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.socialism Subject: Re: Democratic socialism vs. Corporate Autocracy, was: Socialism, understanding what it is.. Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:53:58 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. JMH wrote: > Given that we currently see how democratic institutions have > worked in various systems, cpaitalistic and socialistic, and > everywhere they seem to reduce to special interest serving > aparatus, what solution is postulated? But only when freedom of expression is denied, either by regulation, coercion, or expense. There is only a competition for power when that office is too profitable. Under a capitalist "democracy", salaries are determined from above, and are invariably too high -- dooming employees to internal bickering on who gets to become Mr. Manager, leaving all the real work undone. In a TRUE supply&demand system, salaries are determined from below. If everyone votes on policy anyway, the manager is reduced to a secretarial role, carrying out policy rather than making it. So what if nobody wants to be a secretary (or janitor)? Raise the salary until someone does. ------ We are the music makers -- and we are the dreamers of the dreams.
From: "C. Kane" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.democrats.d,can.politics,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.theory,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.socialism Subject: Re: Democratic socialism vs. Corporate Autocracy, was: Socialism, understanding what it is.. Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 15:11:31 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. > Mike Wooding wrote: > > > OK, I should have pointed this out before, but Hitler was NOT socialist. > > > Otherwise why did he kill so many communists? > > And neither was Mao chinese, as he killed many chinese? He may have claimed to be socialist, much like many Americans claim to believe in democracy without really knowing what democracy or socialism is. REAL democracy cannot occur as long as the press is owned either by autocrats or big business. REAL socialism cannot occur as long as thieving politicians cannot be voted out of office. REAL freedom of expression cannot occur as long as people are being censored with execution, silent imprisonment, intimidation, and expensive communication cost. ------- Capitalist "democracy": Everyone is equal, the rich are more equal.
From: "C. Kane" cyu@geocities.com Newsgroups: alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.labor-unions,alt.politics.reform,can.politics,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,talk.politics.theory,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.socialism Subject: Re: Democratic socialism vs. Corporate Autocracy, was: Socialism, understanding what it is.. Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 16:36:42 -0700 Organization: Church of Scientology, Intimidation, and Vast Profits, Inc. Derek Nalecki wrote: > Oy-vey, another illiterate. Hitler's party was elected to office. It > gained a plurality of seats in the Reichstag and thus he was nominated > a Chancellor (Prime Minister) by President Hindenburg. > Hitler opposed Hindenburg in a presidential election and lost, though > gaining 41% of the popular vote. So your point is that corporate autocracy is better than democracy? That if Hitler was CEO rather than chancellor, we'd all be better off today? While one autocrat may be well meaning, you can NEVER guarantee that all FUTURE autcrats will also be well meaning. THAT is why democracy works. But democracy cannot work if there isn't freedom of speech, if anybody who disagrees with the chancellor is intimidated, imprisoned, and executed into silence, or censored with expensive airtime costs. ------ The only difference between a political prisoner and a common criminal is the country you live in.

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