RUDOLF STAFFEL is an internationally known potter, whose experiments with wheel thrown porcelain have stimulated a revival of its use in this country. By varying the thickness of porcelain in a vessel’s wall, Rudi creates “light gatherers", which block, transmit, and appear to hold light in various ways. He was born and raised in San Antonio, Texas, and met Harding Black there in the 1930’s. One could describe Rudi as Harding Black’s mentor, but clearly throughout more than fifty years of intermittent meetings, the men have developed a special friendship. Rudi is Professor Emeritus from the Tyler School Art at Temple University and lives in Philadelphia

WILLIAM DALEY is an internationally known handbuilder, who constructs stoneware architectonic pots, which investigate various relationships of their interiors and their exteriors. He is Distinguished Professor from the University of the Arts and lives in Philadelphia.

In conjunction with the exhibition (Harding Black In Celebration) at Baylor University, Paul McCoy, curator, asked Bill Daley to interview Rudi Staffel about Harding Black. Bill asked me to accompany him to the interview, which took place at Rudi ‘s house on July 20, 1990

l am assistant Professor of Art at Moore College of Art and Design in Philadelphia and teach Twentieth Century Crafts. I was grateful for the opportunity to tape this special occasion for my oral archives and agreed to edit this interview. Marian Pritchard

WD Could you tell us when you met Harding Black and what he was like?

R.S. It must have been around the year 1932. I was teaching what they called the “Talented Students Class” for the public schools. There were students from all grades who many teachers thought could profit by extra art lessons on Saturday, so they were sent to the Witte Museum for one of their educational projects Actually, it was my first teaching job.

Had you finished art school by then?

I had finished dropping out of art school by then (laughter)

Would you say that Harding Black was self-taught?

As far as I know he was. It bears out a contention I’ve always had that if you want to learn something, teach it. In hindsight I think Harding was something of a genius in ferreting out information that he wanted. I remember he was going great guns in the war years. He was learning ceramics so rapidly he was way ahead of anybody I knew as far as glazes were concerned. His copper reds are unbelievably beautiful. Harding was a master of glazes and one of the most generous human beings in the ceramic field that I’ve known. He had literally a room full of beautifully organized test tiles of all his glazes, and he would just throw the room open to anybody who wanted to rummage through his tiles. All the recipes were there and he shared them with anyone who was interested. It was wonderful to go and visit him.

WD You were saying how marvelously Harding could produce copper reds.

R S Anything difficult Harding would master. Anything difficult, such as copper reds and iron spots

M.P. Why was there so much interest at that time in cone 10 reduction glazes like the copper reds’

R S Well, I think it was Bernard Leach’s book (A Potter’s Book) that produced that interest in almost all of us Also the work of Charles Binns at Alfred University and that of Paul Cox, who wrote prolifically.

MP How would potters working in Texas find information on formulating glazes?

R S Men like Arthur Baggs and Paul Cox loved to write articles on aspects of ceramic industry.

WD. Ceramic Industry Magazine had a section in every issue which was for the studio potter although about 80% of the magazine was geared toward engineering interests. I think Cox, and Baggs, and Charles Harder wrote for that. Did you get the Data Book Issue?

R S Ceramic Industry was my Bible, and my Data Book Issue is falling apart. Still has information you can’t get anyplace else.

WD Ceramic Industry Majazine printed a review and compilation of all the salient technical information from that year, plus they would include other information pertinent to glaze calculations in the back of this book. It was a text as well as a review. So Rudi, do you think Harding used these sources?

R.S I’m sure of it, and what really pleased and amazed me was to see that Harding was writing aritcies for Ceramics Monthly. Everyone’s amazed at his glaze catalog. It would be wonderful if he’d publish it.

WD I don’t think people now realize how much the magic of a glaze surface inspired individuals to devote their energy and interest to exploring it. Do you know if Harding was ever interested in finding natural clays and glaze materials?

R S Yes, I noticed this article (“Iron Spotted Glazes,” Ceramics Monthly, 2/54) mentions that one of his glazes is dependent on a clay he found called D’Hanis Clay, which is found near San Antonio . Also, he had a clay mine of his own someplace in the hills north and west of San Antonio. He gave me a sample of the clay, and it would have been impossible for the layman to use because it had no plasticity whatsoever (laughter). Harding would ball mill the clay for hours and hours, and then it was magnificently plastic

WD Did you know how he discovered it?

R S Almost every state has a study made of mineral deposits. He probably went to Austin, the state capital, and studied the mineral deposits of the state. I’m sure he did. That’s the kind of thoroughness that he would follow. He also researched red clays. The guy’s an encyclopedia. He’s a walking ceramic encyclopedia . During the streetcar days I think he was working in fairly low temperatures, but when he built his own studio, I know he went up to high temperatures.

WD Was he as interested in the form of the pots as he was in the glazes?

RS I think he was mostly interested in the tactile feel of the pot. I think if he had a satisfactory glaze, it would make him happy. He was a functional potter. If it was reasonably functional, it would also make him happy. I don’t think he cared too much for what we might call the sophistication of form and its historical development and things of that sort, at least it seemed that way to me at that time . I think Harding’s aesthetics as far as the form was concerned was that the form was adequate to express a glaze.

WD Well, my teacher, Charles Abbott, was that way. He cared more about the glaze than he did about the pot. He’d make a plate and put the glaze on it. R S I think Harding was the same. I think he was happy if the form was adequately functional - pleasant, pleasingly functional ... but if you were involved with ceramics yourself you were immediately impressed with his glazes. Immediately. They probably impressed the general population, too, because look how wonderfully he has developed and survived through public acceptance of his work.

M.P. Would he find a glaze, use it for awhile, and then search for a new surface?

RS Those details, I really wouldn’t know except that ‘I’m sure he worked like most potters If he had fifty different pots, he wouldn’t make fifty different glazes. He’d make a few glazes for the fifty pots. The shape and the form would determine changes in the glaze. You know how a shoulder does something to a glaze, how a vertical surface affects the glaze? That’s why we were so fascinated with form, but we accepted it without too much discussion.

M P. What were some of the aesthetic influences coming into Texas?

R S In the 40’s it was a time of “do your own thing.” There was one excellent little book written by

WD. Edmund deForest Curtis.

R.S. Curtis’s book (Pottery. It’s Craftsmanship and Appreciation) must have come out in the 30’s. I think Binns had also written an excellent book (The Potter’s Craft). Leach’s book was relatively late.

MP Were you and Harding Black influenced in the 50’s by developments at Alfred or Scandinavia?

R S Macho potters don’t talk about aesthetics. They’re funny. They don’t talk about aesthetics Pots are pots, you know, and they let it go at that. When I say they, I don’t mean to point at somebody outside of the realm of all of us working in ceramics. It would be discussed, but not in the formality that you would find in criticism and discussion around fine arts, or so-called fine arts. . . I think his chief source of information and inspiration was the Chinese. Harding did a lot of traveling, of which I’ve lost track, but he’d see a pot he’d like and go home and research the glaze

W.D. Rudi, do you think that although Harding was working in a rural place, he was really an international person? R.S That’s an inreresting viewpoint.

WD He had access to technical information, but he would get out and find whatever he needed wherever it was.

R.S. You know one of the prerequisites of being an artist is persistence, and this guy really has persistence. It just oozes out all over the place, and it’s fascinating to see.

WD. Do you think maybe there’s a frontier attitude there, too? Perhaps that relates to what you were saying about being a macho potter? R S Maybe that’s a frontier atmosphere. Persistence is a human attribute - and lack of it is a human attribute (laughter)

W.D. Did he like making certain things more than others? Was he a plate guy or a bowl guy?

R S. For awhile he made magnificent big plates, about 24 inches across. Also bottles, vases.

W.D. Did he exhibit much?

R.S. Well, you see in those early days there weren’t the kind of craft galleries with which we’re familiar today, but leading department stores would occasionally have a show I remember Harding had a very important show at a posh department store called Frost Brothers, the equivalent of Macy’s or Gump’s. Whether he applied and got into others, I don’t know because I’d only see Harding on visits back home. I do know that anyone interested in archeology, ceramics, or other related fields down there knows Harding. He’s had a wide influence, really a wide influence.

WD Do you think he was successful in terms of marketing his work and having an audience for it?

R S Well, the audience was certainly there and highly admiring. I don’t think he worked at it too much. I don’t think he really cared how much people liked it. His passion is ceramics He just wants to make the work. I think a lot of people have approached him for his work, and as far as I know I think he’s been relatively independent. In the early days, if you wanted a Harding Black pot, you’d go see Harding Black

WD I guess in the early days, except for the department stores, there weren’t any outlets were there?

R S No. There were outlets for paintings, but not for ceramics. A phenomenon of our age, I guess.

WD Was Harding interested in aspects of art other than ceramics?

R S I know his chief interest outside of ceramics was fishing. He and his mother always went fishing in the gulf for big stuff. Real big stuff, not little perchies (laughter). Fishing was a great passion for him.

WD What kind of demeanor does he have? What kind of person is he?

R S He’s always dressed in a long apron and it’s always full of clay. He’s very quiet, and he putters around that beautiful building of his. When I go now to visit remaining family members in San Antonio, I drop by Harding’s place, and there he is working. We look at each other as if we had visited yesterday, although it may in actuality have been ten years “Well, hi, how’re doing?” he says and picks up the conversation you were having ten years ago. When I was giving a talk at NCECA (the National Council on Education for the Ceramic Arts) in San Antonio a few years back. Harding was in the audience, and we resumed our dialogue right then and there (laughter).

WD We’ve been talking all along about Harding’s special qualities, but what made him so singular for you?

R S. The fact that nothing was difficult for Harding. Nothing was difficult.

WD In a way do you think Harding was an alchemist?

R.S Harding was an alchemist, particularly in glazes.

WD. Thanks for your reminiscences, Rudi. Because we won’t be able to see Harding’s show at Baylor, we’ll have to ask Paul McCoy to send us a set of the slides. It would be fun for us to enjoy his pots here