This message covers general debriefing of returnees Shepard, Vernon C., E5, B Troop, 7/17 Air Cavalry Squadron and Peterson, Michael T., W01, B Troop, 7/17 Air Cavalry Squadron.  [In addition, a] detailed debriefing of WO Peterson is included.  Both returnees were MIA/POW, 2 Nov. ‘69 and returned to US control on 10 Dec. 69.

Interview conducted at 71st Evac Hospital, Pleiku, RVN[1], on 10-11 Dec. 69, as follows (map sheet 6533 IV).

Debriefer: Mr. Wearn, James M., S/A, 4th MID, 4th lnf Div APO SF 96262.

Time: 10-11 Dec. 69.

Place: 71st Evac Hospital, PLEIKU (Pleiku), RVN

Q:  Please identify yourself.

Mr. Peterson (MTP):  I am W01[2] Michael T. Peterson, 531-52-1032.

Q:  What unit are you with?

MTP:  B Troop, 7-17 Air Cavalry Squadron.

Q:  What is your name?

Mr. Shepard (VCS):  Sergeant Shepard, 301-46-4388, B Troop, 7-17 Air Cavalry Squadron.

Q:  What is your first name and middle initial?

VCS:  My first name is Vernon, middle initial is C.

(Specialist Gunter takes over the questioning)

Q:  Was there any capturing unit identified during the time you were there?

VCS:  They did mention our unit, B Troop, 7-17 Cav.

Q:  Did they mention any of their units?

VCS:  No sir, just the NLF, National Liberation Front.

Q:  OK, did you see any weapons that you could identify at all?

VCS:  Just AK-47s, and B-40 rocket launchers.  And at one time I saw them carrying something that was about 120mm.  Maybe artillery rounds. I saw a platoon of them carrying them and each of them had one.  There were maybe 30 of them total.  The small rockets, I don't know what they are, they had fins on the end, and about 8" long (mortar rounds).  They carried them, about twelve of them, on a pole that they would carry on their backs.  Of course there were pistols.  I could identify an officer by the pistol he carried.  It is similar to our.45 and there were knives.  I saw one mortar tube in the vicinity of Duc Lap, plus emplacements - mortar emplacements.

Q:  You didn't at any time see any artillery, say for instance, 75mm recoilless rifle or a 120mm mortar.

VCS:  No, I don't think so.

Q:  How about 107s or 122mm rockets?  Did you see anything that you thought was a rocket like that?

VCS: No.

Q:  OK, what other types of equipment did you see besides weaponry, as far as gear they would use, say gear that a US unit would carry with them as far as cooking utensils or anything as for as miscellaneous data?

VCS:  They had US canteens, US canteen cups.  They had knives, forks and spoons they gave us to eat with.  That is all I can remember right now.  What they had was a lot of US-type paraphernalia -- sundry items.  I saw one, for example, carrying a plastic cigarette case that you by in the PX, and I saw one carrying an M-16.

Q:  How about radios, did you see any PRC[3]-25s or PRC-77s?

VCS:  No, I didn't, but while I was E&Eing[4] I saw several wires that were double wires, communications wires.  As far as their cooking utensils, they had big pots, like we would call the old kettles that they would cook their rice in, then they had these wicker baskets that they would dump their rice into afterward.  They carried most of their food in a sock.  They carried their roots and their greens, you know like our spinach, in their packs.  Their packs are similar to our packs, except they are much heavier.  I found that out after I carried one a little ways.

Q:  The routine the NVA[5] followed every day, was there a specific chore or any specific thing to do as far as any building of bunkers or foxholes or anything like that?

VCS:  Yes, normally they never traveled at night.  All traveling was done in the early morning on through the day.  They rise at dawn every day, at dawn or just before dawn.  They get up and eat their breakfast. Of course we were in POW camp so what we saw there was guard shifts each two hours.  But while I was in route to the POW camp, what they would do was we would travel from fortification to fortification.  In other words, they would have bunker complexes set up at various intervals along the trail and we would go from bunker complex to bunker complex, stay for the night, bunker complex to bunker complex the next day.  At one of these bunker complexes I watched them build two bunkers and they built them quite sturdily.  They did a fortified foxhole, cover it with logs, earth, leaves and sticks and build a lean-to over the entrance.

Q:  OK, so they did have overhead cover to protect themselves plus camouflage, right?

VCS: Yes.

Q:  Did you ever see anyone come through the area that you thought was carrying any type of supplies, either ammo or equipment, anything that you could identify as a supply group or any supply unit.

VCS:  No, not really.  They did have various food caches around the area.  We stopped at one place that we called "Howard Johnson's".  It is just one little square hooch and all around it were fields.  There was a rice field and there was a green field where they grow the spinach-like greens.  They grow what they call maniac roots, and squash and sweet potatoes and stuff like that. Much like if you were to see it from the air, you would think it were a Montagnard-type field.  One Montagnard did come through the area.  This is where I believe they get their food, in these places set up throughout the area.

Q:  Did you ever get a designation of any of these areas, anything that you could distinguish as being A, H, or T and then followed by a number such as 85?

VCS:  No.

Q:  Were these NVA?

VCS:  No, they were not NVA.  They were NLF troops. They made that point very clear to us.  They discussed it every day that they were not NVA troops but were what they called the "People of the National Liberation Front", NLF.

Q:  What did they wear as far as clothing?

VCS:  They wore the same uniforms that we came in wearing. Green-type fatigues and Ho Chi Minh sandals.  Some of them wore those pit helmets but a lot of them did not.  In fact. most of them did not have helmets.  It was too much of a chore for them in the jungle.  A lot of their uniforms were old and faded, and some of them wore khaki tops and OD pants or OD tops and khaki pants.  They mix them up a lot.

Q:  At any time did you see uniforms that were gray or blue gray? Did any one person come into the area that was wearing this type of fatigues?

VCS:  Usually the medics wore blue.  The officers usually wore the khaki-type with brown hats.

Q:  Did most of the personnel's morale seem pretty high?    Were they content with their food supply?

VCS:  Oh yes.  Their morale is very high.  At night when we would stop they would sit around and smoke their pot and laugh.  Yes, their morale is very, very high or so it seems to me.

Q:  At any time did you see anything as far as any US aircraft, or hear any artillery fire, any B52 strikes or anything like that?

VCS:  Yes, especially when we were first short down.  There were B52 strikes, air strikes and artillery going all around us.  In fact, the officer who was with me, Mr. Nowicki, got a fragment in his arm from these, that's how close they were to us.  While we were in the POW camp we would go to sleep by the sound of the arclights[6].  Some of them came pretty close.  None of them did any damage, however, to any of the structures that we could see.

Q:  What was the enemy troops' reactions to the arclights?  Did they seem worried at all?

VCS:  No, not at the POW camp.  While I was in route there were no artillery, arclights or air strikes that came near us.  While I was at the POW camp they shelled all around us, but never came near the POW camp.  They never got worried.

Q:  So they felt pretty secure?

VCS:  Yes, they did.  When all of these arclights and air strikes were going off they would point at it as if to say, "This is your fault, these are your people doing this kind of stuff', just to make us feel bad and guilty.

Q:  Do you have any idea of what type of fire you were shot down by?

VCS:  No.

Q:  Are there any other Americans still alive?

VCS:  Five of them made it and one of them did not.

Q:  Who are the people that went down with you?

VCS:  W01 James E. Nowicki, CPT Luis G. Chirichigno, W01 George W. Grega, and 1 LT Guy Curran.

Q:  Which ones do you know to be alive right now besides yourselves?

VCS:  I could not say that any of them are dead, but I believe there is a good possibility that Mr. Grega shot himself.  He was burned pretty badly and was in a lot of pain.  While we were lying in the field he kept trying to take my pistol from me and use it on himself.  So I hid our pistol on the other side of CPT Chirichigno and then I forgot about the pistols when I left them to get help and as I lay in the woods that night, I thought I heard a single shot.

Q:  Did anyone talk about him during the time you were detained?

VCS:  Yes, the person who interrogated us told us he was dead.

Q:  How did he tell you he was dead?  Did he tell you he had his body?

VCS:  No, he just said that he was dead.

Q:  What is the condition of the other individuals who went down with you?

VCS:      Mr. Nowicki had a burn on his left hip that they fixed up, and CPT Chirichigno was shot up very bad in both forearms and they amputated the ring finger of his left hand.

Q:  Are those the only injuries that CPT Chirichigno and Mr. Nowicki had?

VCS:  To my knowledge, yes.

Q:  How about LT.  Curran?

VCS:  He had no wounds at all.

Questions directed to Mr. Peterson.

Q:  What was the date that you were shot down?

MTP:  It was 2 Nov. 69.

Q:  Approximately what time?

MTP:  Approximately 2 or 3 o'clock.

Q:  What were the circumstances?

MTP:  I had just come one station in a Cobra helicopter, and two of our LOHs[7] had been shot down and one had been burning for about five minutes.  I was circling the area and had half expended my ordinance when I noticed someone climbing out of the burned LOH and stagger up the hill in a daze, falling and getting up.  I descended a little lower and I could see that his arms, face and neck were burned.  He was not wearing a nomex shirt.  I later learned from him that it had been burned off.  To my knowledge there were no other slicks in the area, so I elected to go in and see if I could pick him up on my ammo bay doors. I made two low passes and on the second I was hit in the leg and foot and it would have been OK, but a bullet of apparently heavy caliber came through and hit the cyclic tearing it in half and knocking it over to the side of the helicopter.  I lost control of the helicopter as a result and we descended into the side of the hill where the rotor blades contacted the side of the ground and we flipped over and landed inverted.  I released myself, and CPT Chirichigno was in the front seat so I ran up there and pulled him out and dragged him over to Mr. Grega, the man I had attempted to rescue.  We lay in the field for approximately 2 1/2 hours. Mr. Grega had been passing out as well as CPT Chirichigno.

Q:  Can you give me a description or an estimate of the exact location of where you went down?

MTP:  Yes.  Approximately eight miles south of Duc Lap, about 3/4 of a mile north of old Firebase Helen, in an open field to the west of the highway that runs north and south towards Firebase Helen and Gia Nhai. I believe the name of the highway is QL14.

Q:  From the field that you went down in, where did you go?

MTP:  After 2 1/2 hours, CPT Chirichigno and George were in pretty bad shape, so I elected to try to flag down a helicopter to the south in another open field about 200 meters to the south, thinking it might have been a little more secure.

Q:  Was there a helicopter that flew over there?

MTP:  Yes, there was.

Q:  Was it flying low level?

MTP:  Yes, it was.  There were several other helicopters all over the area.

Q:  How low was the helicopter flying and what was the nature of the helicopter?

MTP:  The helicopter was a Cobra helicopter and it was making low circular passes over the field in its orbit to come around over our field.

Q:  Did it spot you?

MTP:  Yes, it did eventually.  Then it called in a slick who attempted to come in and pick me up.  He descended to just about ten feet above the ground when he received a heavy, heavy volume of fire and from what I could see they were white tracers.  Consequently he had to pull pitch and leave the area in order to save his crew.

Q:  OK, what did you do then?

MTP:  I figured that they were using us for bait to try to shoot down the remaining helicopters, and for this reason I decided to try to escape and evade to Duc Lap or Bu Prang.  I elected to go to Duc Lap.

Q:  Which direction did you head in?

MTP:  First I intended to go south and then turn east, so I waded out of the field to the south and then turned east.  This was the next day now.  Because just after the helicopter descended and got shot up it got dark and I could not find my way through the woods, so I spent the night in the woods to the south of the open field that I was in.

Q:  How deep in the wood line?

MTP:  About 30 meters.

Q:  What time did you get up the next morning.

MTP:  Before dawn.  I guess it was about 3:30 a.m.

Q:  Did you have a watch with you?

    MTP: Yes.

Q:  What direction did you start in?

MTP:  The sun had not come up yet, but I believe I started to the south.  I followed a stream.

Q:  Did you have a map?

MTP:  Yes, I had the E&E map.

Q:  How far did you follow the stream?

MTP:  I followed the stream for approximately 200 meters.

Q:  And then which direction did you head in?

MTP:  I headed west because I was spotted by a patrol of the enemy and fired upon.

Q:  How many enemy were in the patrol?

MTP:  I saw and counted four men.

Q:  Approximately how many rounds did they fire?

MTP:  One round.  He fired over my head, I watched him, he didn't fire at me.

Q:  Which direction did you take off in then?

MTP:  I headed to the east after I was fired upon.

Q:  What were the terrain features?

MTP:  I was on the west side of the stream with the stream below me. It was meandering through a ravine, so I scrambled down the ravine, up the other side and ran approximately 1 00 meters to the west and turned 90 degrees to what I believed to be the south, trying to zigzag so that they couldn't follow me so easily.

Q:  You were basically heading south and east?

MTP:  Yes.

Q:  Approximately what time were you fired on?  Was the sun up?

MTP:  Yes, the sun was up.  It was approximately eight in the morning.

Q:  After you had been though your zigzag patterns down in the valley, what did you do?

MTP:  Then I laid up in a bush, under a thicket, under a windfall and they apparently hadn't followed me or they had thought that I possibly was the point man of an American patrol, so they were coming along pretty slowly.  So I again headed out to the east and my leg was starting to bother me again so I was falling.

Q:  You received a wound in your leg and foot did you not?

MTP:  Yes.  The toe of my left foot had been shot off the left digit. I received two bullets in the left foot and I don't know how many in the left knee.  The x-rays will show that.

Q:  Could you describe the terrain that you started heading east over after leaving the area of the stream?

MTP:  Yes.  The valleys ran generally north and south and there was forest, no jungle, not too much underbrush, fallen trees, of course, which is what I used mainly for cover.  There were some thickets and the trees were quite tall.

Q:  What happened to you next?

MTP:  I still continued to head east and nothing else happened.  Then

night came and I spent the night in a thicket.

Q:  This would have been the night of 3 Nov., would it not?

MTP: Yes.

Q:  How long did you stay in the thicket?

MTP:  my patrol came by consisting of eight men.  The point man looked [into] the thicket where I was [hiding] and apparently saw my [… unknown or garbled …].  [Because it was] more important for me to find water than to get to friendly lines, I became very, very careless and I began walking along the trails [instead of beating my way through the underbrush].  [However, I did have the presence of mind to cut the] numerous communications wires I came across...with the knife I had … at the time.  Each one I came upon I would cut.

Q:  Which direction did the trails run?

MTP:  They ran north and south, because I was heading east and I would hit these trails and walk along them to the north and then east again off the trail.  The trails were narrow and very well packed.

Q:  Where the trails straight or winding?

MTP:  They were more or less straight.

Q:  How much communications wire did you come across on each trail?

MTP:  One strand on each trail and I had cut ten strands.

Q:  So you crossed ten trails?

MTP:  No. I crossed more trails than that.  Most of the trails had communications wire on them, but some of them did not.

Q:  So, you proceeded east?

MTP:  Yes.  I was still headed east and I was heading downhill toward the east in attempting to get to some water that I thought might be at the bottom of the hill.  I was walking along a trail and I stumbled over an NLF bunker that had two enemy soldiers in it.

Q:  About what time was this?

MTP:  This was about noon.

Q:  What did the two soldiers do?

MTP:  They did not notice me at first.

Q:  How were they dressed?

MTP:  They were dressed in fatigues, green fatigues.  I believe they were both officers because neither of them had AK-47s or SKSS, but they were carrying .45 caliber pistols with a white star on the handle (possible Chicom 7.62).

Q:  Was it a five pointed star?

MTP:  I don't remember.

Q:  Did they have caps on?

MTP:  No, one was writing a letter.  I only saw one at first because the other one was inside the bunker.  So I attacked the one with my knife.  I stabbed him several times and then he collapsed.  Then the other one came at me.  He didn't have his knife yet so we started struggling and he grabbed my knife hand and we struggled around for quite a while. Finally he broke loose and went back into the bunker and drew his knife.  I followed him inside the bunker and we struggled around some more.  He bit me on the arm twice.  I have a scar on the biceps, a scar on my wrist, a scar on the back of my neck and one on the top of my head from where he bit me.  While he was doing this I was attempting to [stab] him.  In the end [was able to kill] him.   I then took their two canteens and one pistol belt with a weapon on it.

Q:  Was there any water in the canteens?

MTP:  Yes, I finished one canteen and kept the other one full.

Q:  Were both of these soldiers dead when you left them?

MTP:  Yes sir, to my knowledge they were.

Q:  How did you kill the second one?

MTP:  With the knife, sir.

Q:  And you were heading back down the trail, right?

MTP:  Yes.  I was heading back down the trail and I got to the stream below.  I filled the other canteen up with water, drank it, and filled it up again then I started up the other side of the hill headed east.

Q:  How did you know you were headed east?

MTP:  The sun, I would take an azimuth with my watch.

Q:  This was approximately what time?

MTP:  Approximately 1 p.m. I was crawling up the slope when I heard a bunch of shouting behind me. Apparently they had discovered the bodies.  [I was concerned they would catch up to me] so in order to facilitate my escape, I [discarded] the [ammo] belt and kept the one full canteen I hid the belt and pistol under a log.  I continued on my way east up the hill.

Q:  Did they pursue you?

MTP:  Yes, they did.  They did not find me and I had negative sight of them.  I could hear them in the bushes around me, though.

Q:  Did you get over the top of the hill?

MTP:  Yes, I did.  I got to the top of the hill, and at the top of the hill was the road, QL14.

Q:  Then what did you do?

MTP:  I laid in the jungle on the west side of the road until dusk. My leg was really hurting me by this time and it was quite stiff.  [Not being able to walk anymore] I crawled on my belly across the road and into a thicket on the other side.

Q:  Did they pursue you?

MTP:  They did not know where I was at this time.  They had quit searching at approximately 3 o'clock that afternoon.

Q:  After you got up to the road and hid in the bushes on the side, how long did they search around for you?

MTP:  They discontinued the search prior to my reaching the road.

Q:  The next morning what happened, and was there anything in between?

MTP:  No, there was nothing in between.  I just lay in the bushes all night [and all the next day] waiting for darkness.

Q:  Did anything occur during that day?

MTP:  No vehicles passed, no patrols passed. Helicopters were every place and I could hear the air strikes going in, etc.

Q:  Did any helicopters fly at low level over you?

MTP:  No, but it sounded as though there was a fire fight north of where I was at.

Q:  What happened that night?

MTP:  I attempted to get [back] on the road and crawl north.  I crawled up to the road and it was impossible for me to crawl any further. I got about 30 yards and gave up.  I passed out and I woke up sometime later, I don't know what time it was then I crawled back into the same thicket where I was laying and spent the rest of the night there, and the rest of the next day.

Q:  What happened the next night?

MTP:  By the next night I had finished my canteen and I threw it away.  It rained that night and I was very, very thirsty again.  I just could not seem to satisfy my thirst.  I crawled out on the road and drank the water off the road and then I crawled back into the thicket. What would be the date at this time?  I was captured on the seventh, the afternoon of the seventh.

Q:  This is the night just before the seventh?

MTP:  Right, nothing happened that night.  I did not know what to do. I couldn't move and I was thirsty.  I had thoughts of giving up in my mind, but I put that out.  I just laid there for the rest of the day until, about 4 o'clock, an enemy patrol came by consisting of eight men.  The point man looked down in the thicket where I was at and apparently saw my face or a flash from my hand.  He then came to me and I was captured.

[Comment:  This didn’t come out in the transcript, but during the night I became delerious.  Essentially, I was quite agitated and began shouting and swearing, daring them to come and find me.  I believe this is how they knew where to look for me, as I was a good 10 feet off the side of the road laying in some very, very thick bush. I must confess that during my lucid moments I predicted they’d find me so that night I threw the knife, with which I had  killed the two officers, as far from my location as I could back into the bush.]

Q:      Exactly what happened from the time you were captured?  Where did they take you?

MTP:  We traveled south approximately 3/4 of a mile to what we call the "triangle" which was abandoned.  We got to the "triangle" and we stopped and they crawled in through the barbed wire around the "triangle" and did something in there. I couldn't tell what they did. They came back out and picked me up.  Oh by the way, they had put me in a hammock tied on each end of a bamboo pole which they carried on their shoulders. They had also blindfolded me by folding some of the blanket which made up the hammock back over my head.

[Comment: This, too,  isn’t the whole story.  Actually, the first NVA soldier to get to me, attempted to slug me with the butt of his AK47.  I was able to roll and duck in such a way as to take the blow on my left shoulder.  Immediately, another soldier, probably an officer grabbed the first and yanked him vigorously away, pushed him down, and really laid into him (verbally). He then called for another soldier to come down.  This soldier cut my boot off and retched when he saw/smelled my foot.  Gangrene had begun to set in.]

Q: Did they blindfold you immediately upon your capture?

MTP: No, not until they put me in the hammock, approximately 3 minutes after my capture.

[Comment: The “hammock” is a blanket, strung corner-to-corner on a long pole, in which I lay while two men supported the pole on their shoulders.  These guys were strong.]

Q:  Could you see out?

MTP:  Just a little.  I knew we were on the road and I knew we were at the "triangle".  Then we were on the road and I knew we were turns northwest, there is a place called "fishhook", where the road turns northwest.  We traveled along that road about 200 meters and we turned off on the trail heading north.  Then we got into the trees and it was dark and I could no longer see through my blindfold.  We went a roundabout route initially traveling on the military crest of a ridge winding in and around trees and then over hills.  They tried to confuse me by starting me out in one direction feet first and then turning me around head first.  I noticed one time we were going up and down hills and then we would go around hills.  It was dark and I could not tell what direction we were going.  I assumed it was somewhere north, northwest, or northeast.

Q:  Approximately how long did you travel like that?

MTP:  Approximately two hours.

Q:  During this time did you hear anything that was unusual?

MTP:  I could hear helicopters.

Q:  Did you hear the helicopters at night?

MTP:  Yes, it was at dusk.

Q:  What did you do after the two hours?

MTP:  We stopped at a camp and I slept in the hammock that night. They fed me a bowl of rice.

Q:  Was the camp already positioned there?

MTP:  Yes, there were another 3-1 0 people already in the camp making

a total of 15-16 people, maybe a total of 20.  They took my blindfold

off at the camp and gave me Vietnamese cigarettes.

Q:  About what time was this?

MTP:  It was 8:30 or 8 o'clock.  They had taken my watch and I no

longer had reference to time.

Q:  OK, where did they take you after that?

MTP:  I was blindfolded the next morning and we went to another camp.

[Comment:  Before we set out I had an interesting experience.  A number of soldiers came up to me and made threatening gestures with their weapons.  I didn’t understand what they were trying to communicate until one of them made a whirling motion with one arm while pointing at me.  Evidently, they knew I was a Cobra pilot – The most hated of helicopters – and were trying to frighten me.  It worked!]

Q:  What direction did you go?

MTP:  We started out to the north.

Q:  How do you know you started out to the north?

MTP:  The sun, I could see the light on my right side.

Q:  Did you continue to the north?

MTP:  No, we did not.  It was cloudy and I could no longer tell direction because the light was subdued.

Q:  Describe the terrain.

MTP:  From what I could feel it was still forest.  It was much like it was before, trees, no jungle, old banana trees and jungle-type vegetation.

Q:  How long did you continue traveling like that?

MTP:  I traveled for some days like that.  I was captured on the 7th, I arrived at the POW camp on the evening of the 12th.  I knew it was the evening the of the 12th because the next day I was interrogated and he told me it was the 13th.

Q:  Can you give me any description of the route that you took between the 8th and the 12th.

MTP:  No. The days were the same routine.  We were up in the morning, had a breakfast of rice and what they called soup with little beans mixed with the rice.

Q:  How many men were taking you?

MTP:  Two men carried me, there was a point man with an AK [and a rear] security guard with an AK. [In addition] two guards walked along side me.  Other people sometimes traveled along with us.  We met many people along these trails.

Q:  Did the terrain change?

MTP:  No.

Q:  After the 8th you said the sky clouded over and you could not ascertain your direction.  Did the sun come out at any time during that day so that you could ascertain your direction?

MTP:  Yes.  Not during that day, but on the following days I deduced that we had headed to the west, because every morning we would start out to the west.  I knew the sun rose in the east and every morning we would head away from it. These trails were not like the others.  They were very crooked and it was very hard to keep one's sense of direction.

Q:  How many camps did you pass through?

MTP:  Five days, five camps.  We would stay in a camp each night.

Q:  Did you pass through any camps on the way during the day?

MTP:  No, we did not.

Q:  Can you describe the camp that you went into on the 9th?

MTP:  It was on the north side of the hill.  The valley ran, I believe east and west.  There were four bunkers.

Q:  How high were the hills?  Were they rolling?

MTP: Yes.

Q:  The second night that you spent in a camp, can you describe anything about that camp?

MTP:  No, I can't.  I can't remember anything about that camp.

Q:  How about the night after that?

MTP:  I can't remember the 10th but I can remember the 11th because it was the night before I hit the POW camp.  We were again on the northern crest of the hill which sloped to the east.  There was a big hooch that they all sleep in.  Normally these camps were 10-15 people with transients passing through them at all times.

Q:  Did you have your blindfold off?

MTP:  At night, yes, during the daytime, never.

Q:  Were you able to orient yourself?

MTP:  Only in the morning and evening when they would take my blindfold off?

Q:  They took your blindfold off when the sun went down?

MTP:  Well they would take it off whenever we reached the camp. Sometimes we would get to a camp at 4 o'clock and I would usually see the sun go down.

Q: Is there any particular terrain features other then the hooch at that last camp.

MTP: No terrain features, but we did cross a river several times.

Q:  The same river?

MTP:  Yes, it was the same river and we crossed it at the same place. We would go one way and come back the same way.

Q:  When did you first cross the river?

MTP:  On the 10th.

Q:  You said that you believed that the area to which you were taken was this side of the Cambodian border, between the "triangle" and the Cambodian border.  In other words roughly YU7464 across to 8064,approximately 6980 across to 7869?

MTP: Yes.

Q:  Would you repeat again your reasoning for thinking why it fit in that square?

MTP:  Because we heard air strikes and arclights going in to the northwest of us sometimes quite far to the northwest of us, sometimes quite close.  There were also arclights to the south and all around us but there were definitely air strikes to the northwest and if this were the case we had to be in Vietnam, unless we were arclighting Cambodia. That is my reasoning behind it.

Q:  Can you tell me approximately when you heard the arclights go in?

MTP:  No. It was at night time and I had no watch.

Q:  What I am interested in is the date.

MTP:  Every night, there were arclights every night.

Q:  How did you recognize them?  Had you heard them before?  What was the distance?

MTP: The ones that were far [away] made a rumbling sound and the ones that were close, you could hear the individual bombs.

Q:  When did you leave the POW camp and how?

MTP:  The night of the 5th (Dec.).

Q:  In which direction did you leave?

MTP:  We headed to the northeast.

Q:  Do you recognize any terrain features from the map?

MTP:  No, I don't.  We were blindfolded all the way.

Q:  Did the terrain seem like the same terrain you came in on?

MTP:  No, it was not the same terrain I came in on.

Q:  How do you know it was to the northeast?

MTP:  Because we had laid in our bunkers all day studying this trail and we new this was the way it started out, and it was the trail that we left on.

Q:  How many days did you travel?

MTP:  Five days.

Q:  How many rivers did you cross?

MTP:  Of any size, we only crossed one river.  It was about two feet deep and ten to fifteen feet wide'

Q:  Approximately when did you cross it?

MTP:  Yesterday, late morning.  It was in a real swampy area.

Q:  Where specifically were you released at?

MTP:  We were released on a road over by Duc Lap.  We came up from the south.  We came in from the back way.

Q:  Do you recall when you crossed the highway?

MTP:  No, I don't.

Q:  How hard did they travel?

MTP:  Very, very hard, all day.

Q:  Did you travel primarily in the valleys?

MTP:  Never in the valleys.  Always over the hills.

Q:  Can you remember the physical description of the POW camp?

MTP: It was on the military crest of a hill.  The hill sloped to the south and to the east.  There was a trail that led up from the southeast to a compound. The compound itself was bordered by 7-9 feet high stakes about 6" apart.  The compound was about 50 yards in diameter.  It was oval in shape.  There were three bunkers that we stayed in.  These were approximately 2 1/2 feet deep with a lean-to overhead cover.  The sides were real strong poles about 2" in diameter spaced about 2-3" apart and tied with bamboo sticks.  All the bunkers were like this.  They were about 7'wide and approximately 15 feet long.  They had a little bit of straw for bedding on the bottom and they had thatching on the lean-to roof for overhead cover.  While we were there they brought in two ARVN soldiers. They did not have room for them and therefore had to dig another bunker. This one was approximately 5 feet deep with some farthest to the east. Two ARVNs[8] stayed in the middle bunker, and two ARVNs stayed in the bunker farthest to the west.  Our bunker faced to the north, the middle bunker faced to the north, and the west bunker faced to the east.  They faced to the inside of the compound.  All around the compound were punji[9] stakes.  It was situated in forested country virtually invisible from the air.  The trail was approximately one to three feet wide, very hard packed and running southeast to northwest.  After it passed the compound it continued on to a small hooch with a table in it and a log for the POWs to sit on, where we were interrogated. At the other entrance of the POW camp, on the north side next to the trail was a guard shack.  There were two trails to the compound about 10 meters apart.

Q:  Why were there two northern entrances to the compound?

MTP:  One of the trails was used when we were going up to the interrogation place.  The other was used by the guards.

Q:  When you got into the POW camp what precautions if any were taken to restrain you?

MTP:  None were taken to restrain me, they knew I wouldn't escape, but what they did was to put me in cell number two and there I slept that one night.

Q:  Were you bound in any way?

MTP:  No, I was sick and could not move.  They knew I could not get out.

Q:  Was anyone else in the cell too?

MTP:  Yes.  When I got there nobody else was there, but after I was settled in, they brought in two ARVNS.

Q:  How long had you been there when they were brought in?

MTP:  About an hour.

Q:  Do you know the names of these ARVNS?

MTP:  They were the two that we were released with.  I at the time did not know that Mr. Nowicki, SGT Shepard, and CPT Chirichigno were at the camp.

Q:  This was at night time? You slept there, did they feed you?

MTP:  Yes, they gave me a small can of rice and manioc roots.

Q:  Did anything happen that night?

MTP:  Nothing.  I could hear moaning coming from the east which later turned out to be CPT Chirichigno moaning because of his hands.

Q:  What happened the next morning?

MTP:  The next morning I was brought up to be interrogated.  That was the morning of the 13th.

Q:  Who did you see there?

MTP:  I don't know his name.  We referred to him as the "main man".

Q:  Who else did you see, any U.S. types?

MTP:  Yes, the morning before I was brought up, they fed the prisoners.  I saw Mr. Nowicki get up and go get his bowl of rice for SGT Shepard and CPT Chirichigno and take it back.

[Inarticulate Q & A]

Q:  After you saw Mr. Nowicki did they take you up to the interrogation hooch?

MTP: Yes

Q:  What did the "main man" question you about?

MTP:  He told me the rules of the camp.

Q:  What were the rules of the camp?

MTP:  We had to bow to the guards whenever we got out of the bunker. We had to say "thank you." We could talk, but we had to talk very quietly.  We could not ask for anything except necessities.

Q:  What was the interrogator's attitude?

MTP:  At all times it seemed to me he was trying his best not to show an attitude.

Q:  What other questions did he ask?

MTP:  He said, "By your orders, you are assigned to B Troop, 7-17 Cavalry, etc., etc." and he went all the way up through the lst Aviation Brigade, and USARV.  He also asked what 7-17 meant, a Cavalry Regiment or a Division. He tried to find out if CPT Chirichigno was a platoon leader.  He seemed to dwell on that for a very long time.  He asked many questions about my family.  He never asked for addresses or where I worked or anything.

Q:  Was he conversational?

MTP:  Yes, he was very polite.  He really tried to be correct.

Q:  How long did this interrogation last?

MTP:  About 1 1/2 hours.

Q:  What happened after that?

MTP:  They took me down and put me in bunker number 4 with CPT Chirichigno, Mr. Nowicki and SGT Shepard.  That was the last I was interrogated until after CPT Chirichigno and Mr. Nowicki left us.  I wasn't interrogated until about the early part of December.

Q:  Was that the same time that CPT Chirichigno and Mr. Nowicki left?

MTP:  No, they left on the 15th of Nov.  They tied their arms behind their backs, put packs on them, and left.  That was the last we saw of them.

Q:  Did they have doctors in the camp?

MTP:  No, they brought their doctors, NLF doctors.  I assume they were doctors.  However, they may have been highly trained medics.  The interrogator told me they were doctors.

Q:  Was the interrogator the only one who spoke English?

MTP:  Yes, none of the rest of them spoke even slight English.

Q:  What language did they speak?

MTP:  Vietnamese.

Q:  Were there any other than Vietnamese in the camp?

MTP: No.

Q:  How were they dressed?

MTP:  The doctors wore white smocks.  The other personnel were dressed in fatigues either OD or khaki or mixed.  As it was cold they wore pieces of cloth around their neck tucked in their shirts.  They gave us thin black pajamas to wear.  We were not allowed to keep the uniforms we had.

Q:  Did they take anything away from you?

MTP:  Yes, they took my watch and ring away from me, which they returned.  They took my wallet and my money and all my ID cards, which they did not return.  I had thrown away all of my ID cards that had my home address on them prior to being captured.

Q:  What were the doctors dressed like?

MTP:  White smocks.

Q:  Were there any other people dressed in any different way?

MTP:    The "main man" was dressed in his normal khaki uniform.  He always wore a khaki uniform.

Q:  Were there any symbols or decorations on the uniforms?

MTP:  No. One guard had a belt with a red star on it.  Some of the soldiers had belts with red stars on them and some of them did not.  The two officers that I killed in the jungle both had red stars on their belts and their pistols.

Q:  Did you notice any tags on the pajamas you wore?

MTP:  No, I did not look on the inside to see if there were any labels.  I forgot about that.  There may have been a tag.

Q:  Did they have a flag?

MTP:  They did have a flag when they released us because we went to a release ceremony.

Q:  What kind of flag?

MTP:  It was about 3'x2', red on top, blue on the bottom, divided in half, with a gold star in the middle.  A five pointed star.

Q:  Did they tell you what it stood for?

MTP:  Yes, the NLF.

Q:  Did you see any other flags?

MTP:  No. They saluted the flag by shouting at it.

Q:  What were most of the interrogations about?

MTP:  It wasn't really an interrogation, it was more or less lectures on what the NLF stood for, why it was in Vietnam, a history of its struggle in Vietnam, what they US was doing in Vietnam.  They informed us of this incident at My Lai and they dwelled a lot on that.

Q:  What did they tell you about the incident in My Lai?

MTP:  They told us we had massacred a village that included women and children. They told us that the Nixon Administration was attempting to blame a Lieutenant, the gave the Lieutenant's name.  He made a big thing about it. They didn't refer to it as My Lai.  They said it was Song Mei in the Province of Quang Lai.

Q:  At any time while you were there did you get any body's name?

MTP:  No. But I did get the name of one guard.  As I was laying in a camp on the way to being released, a group of five young soldiers passed by.  One of them spoke to one of the guards, he called him Tu Ong.

Q: What did these young troops look like?  How were they dressed?

MTP: They wore the normal uniform and Ho Chi Minh sandals.

Q: After the first time you were interrogated and you went back into the bunker, from that time on did you see other    Americans.

MTP:  No.

Q:  Did you hear of any other Americans in the area or in any other base camps as prisoners?

MTP:  Not by name.  The "main man" told us that they had captured some other Americans and that they were very humble.  They never killed their prisoners or tortured them.  That was the context, the reason he told us they had other American prisoners, was to bring out the fact that they never tortured or maimed their prisoners.

Q:  Did he ever mention any prisoner specifically by name?

MTP:  No, not unless he was referring to one of us.

Q:  Did he indicate that he had had any other prisoners prior to you?

MTP:  No, he had not.

Q:  Did he indicate anything about his background?

MTP:  No, he did not.

Q:  The "Main Man" wouldn't give you information on him because you didn't ask him - is that correct?

MTP:  I didn't ask him - right.

Q:  While you were there, there were 4 US and 2 ARVN?

MTP:  4 ARVN - then a total of 6 in late Nov.  When I arrived at the camp, there were two ARVNs - the ones that were released with us – we called them "Shit Pot" and "Ding-a-ling", because "Shit Pot" was sick all the time and had the runs and thus the name.  They wore tiger fatigues.  I think they were from the Duc Lap camp since the soldiers seemed to know them and greeted them when we arrived at Duc Lap, after our release.  I think they were on the release order with us.  Two more ARVNs arrived about mid Nov.  One had the name Sanjo on his name tag - we called him "Blanket Head".  The other one (name unknown) we called Ja Bastas, because he gave us Ja Bastas cigarettes.  They wore regular OD fatigues and I think they went over to the enemy.

Q:  What makes you think so?

MTP:  Well, when we had to move, after the two hard core ARVNs had escaped, these two were not bound and Blanket Head (Sanjo) helped to hunt for the escapees.

Q:  What about the "hard core ARVNS"?

MTP:  These two ARVNs arrived in late Nov. and they were tough.  They wore OD fatigues and would not cooperate with camp personnel.  They were kept in a hole in the ground.  They escaped in the late afternoon of 5 Dec.  Then we were moved to another camp.

[Comment: Just before I was put on a plane to return to the states, the Army brought in one of the “hard core” former prisoners who had been in camp with us.  I learned that day that these two men had deliberately let themselves be captured in order to find out where we were staying.  They were part of the ARVN special operations cadre.  Sadly, the man’s partner had been killed in the escape.]

Q:  Would you describe a "normal" day at the first camp?

MTP:  Sure.  The normal day began at sun-up.  The guard woke us up - unlocked the prisoners, one at a time and they went out to the toilet - including the U.S. prisoners.  Then we were brought our food - which consisted of rice, greens and some days rice and squash.  From that time in the morning we were fed, we stayed in the bunker all day, except to go out to go to the bathroom or be interrogated.  I was interrogated for about 1 1/2 hours on first day, then again in early Dec. In the evening we were brought the evening meal, the same meal, rice and greens we then went to bed. We were not locked-up in the bunkers during the day - SGT Shepard was locked up near the last when his leg got better and he could walk.  I was no problem since I couldn't walk.  I couldn't even roll over any more.

Q:  Did the "Main Man" hold any group meetings?

MTP:  Not really.  Toward the end he would interrogate SGT Shepard and myself together, since SGT Shepard would have to carry me up to the "Main Man".

Q:  Were you ever struck, etc.

MTP:  Never

Q:  What questions did the interrogator ask?

MTP:  About the same each time, like: What is your ETS? What is your DEROS?  When will you get out of the Army?

Q:  Did he ask question about your unit, etc.?

MTP:  Yes.  Like, you are with the 7/17 Cav, why do you call it the Cav? 

“Tradition”, we would say. 

“What does it do?”

“We fly around.”

Then he would get mad at us.  I actually believe that he thought we were really stupid and not worth his time.  We did nothing to counter that opinion.

Q: [Garbled Something like] What did Sergeant Shepard tell him?

MTP:  SGT Shepard answered questions on TOE[10], jobs, equipment and names.  He

gave them a bunch of horshit answers, if you know what I mean.  Nevertheless, the interrogator

seemed to know an awful lot about US forces.  This was on or about 2 Dec.

Q:  Did you see any troops in POW camp area?  Moving, resting, etc.?

MTP:  No. The camp seemed to be off the trail.  While we were moving, I did see and hear many troops, but not in the POW camp area, except for the doctors who came.

Q:  How often did the doctors come?

MTP:  Just one time.

Q:  Did they treat you?

MTP:  Yes.  They cut off my one toe and changed my bandages.

[Comment:  Actually, they amputated two toes, the piggy that had roast beef and the piggy that had none.  For the technically inclined, this means the 3^rd and 4^th digits of my left foot.]

Q:  Did you receive other medical care?

MTP:  Yes.  They changed my bandages at first.  Every other day.

Q:  Did they seem interested in giving you medical care?

MTP:  Yes.  The "Main Man" said the reason they could not change the bandages more often we that they just didn't have enough.

Q:  Did you see any radio equipment?

MTP:  No. Not even communications wire.

Q:  Any important visitors at camp?

MTP:  No. Even the "Main Man" did not visit our living area.

Q:  When did you leave camp for other camp.

MTP:  About 1700 on 5 Dec.

Q:  How do you remember dates?

MTP:  Well, we kept track of date by sticking sticks in ground and the "Main Man" told us the date once (13 Nov.).

[Comment: We had nothing much to do all day so we made a chess board by weaving bamboo strips taken from the grate that covered the bunker in which we were kept.  One day, a guard saw us playing chess and thought we were plotting an excape.  That caused quite a furor that day and was the end of our chess playing.  They took our board and watched us more closely from then on.]

Q:  You left on 5 Dec.  Was this after the ARVNs escaped?

MTP:  Immediately after.

Q:  Who left with you?

MTP:  SGT Shepard and 4 ARVNS.

Q:  How did they transport you?

MTP:  They carried me in a sling.

Q:  The others?

MTP:  They walked.

Q:  Were you blindfolded?  The others?

MTP:  Yes, we all were.

Q:  How did they go?

MTP:  They were tied together and a guard pulled them.

Q:  Who of the enemy moved?

MTP:  The whole camp, six plus the "Main Man".

Q:  Security, and how did they move?

MTP:  We left in late afternoon and when it got dark, they removed our blindfolds, and we continued to move until we came to a place we called "Howard Johnson's".  We spent night here.  It was about a three hour trip to the north.  It was cloudy.

Q:  Did you see anything?

MTP:  No.

Q:  Did you cross any streams?

MTP:  Yes.  One just short of "Howard Johnson's".

Q:  What was terrain like?

MTP:  Hilly, wooded.

Q:  What about trip from Howard Johnson's to the second POW camp?

MTP:  On morning of 6th - SGT Shepard and two ARVNs left while I remained.  They went to a "way station" further up trail.  I left on 7^th for "way station" and this station had three big hooches, mess hall, benches, pigs, chickens and troops moving through.  SGT Shepard said one enemy platoon moved through station prior to my arrival.  Then another platoon entered the area while I was there - they ate chow in area. They were fully equipped with packs and weapons.  Buildings were large about 20'x3O'xl5 feet high.

Q:  Were troops NVA?

MTP:  NLF.  They had same uniforms as other troops.  I observe only light weapons.

Q:  Any vehicles, pack animals, radios, A/A weapons?

MTP:  No.

Q:  What was activity at the way station?

MTP:  It was a resting and feeding position as far as I could tell. A way station.  We left after 1 - 1 1/2 hours.

Q:  What about second POW camp site?  How far was it   beyond way station?

MTP:  It took about 3 1/2 hrs to reach.  It was small with one hut about 1 O'x2O'.  The main man, camp officer and guards stayed there. About six troops moved through this area.  Main man said they were NLF. They carried AK47s, SKSSs, and ammo belts with canteens, [along] with two ammo pouches.  Mixed uniforms.  No insignia.  Only few hats.

Q:  Where did you stay?

MTP:  We stayed about 20 meters from hut, in stockades under windfall.  Two ARVNs stayed in another one (Shit Pot and Ding-'a-ling). The other two ARVNs converted at Howard Johnson's.

Q:  How do you know they "converted?"

MTP:  They were not tied and they left with an enemy officer.

Q:  What about food?  Did they feed you same?

MTP:  No! Now they were getting ready to release us and they fed us very well.

Q:  How did you know and/or when did you know you were to be released.

MTP:  Two days after we arrived (about 8 Dec).  The main man said that if we repented and how good the "Front" (NLF) was.  He was giving us a lecture, as he did each day at new camp, about the aggressor Americans and about Hanoi and we listened to Radio Hanoi.  He asked no questions.  It was about 4 hours a day.

Q:  Medical attention?

MTP:  Yes.  They changed my bandages one time, the day we left camp.

Q:  During your captivity, did they ever discuss, etc. US air and artillery strikes?

MTP:  Yes!  They didn't like me, since I was a Cobra pilot.  They (the guards) sometimes pointed weapons at me. They didn't like air strikes, either.  They would use sign language and sounds to communicate this to us.  Otherwise nothing.  The Main man said we were aggressors and the war was unjust.

Q:  When they indicated that you might be released what reason did they give?

MTP:  That we had repented, based on our conduct in camp – perhaps because we didn't try to escape - we wouldn't because of our wounds.

Q:  Did you ever see or hear anything of enemy air?

MTP:  No sir.

Q:  When did you leave this last camp?

MTP:  On 8 Dec.

Q:  Were you blindfolded?

MTP:  Yes, all the way.

Q:  When did you get your ring and watch back?

MTP:  On the 8th when we were told we would be released.

Q:  When did you get release papers?

MTP:  On morning of 10 Dec.

Q:  Describe time from last camp?

MTP:  We left with 4 guards and main man, but without an officer. They carried me and SGT Shepard walked.  We were blindfolded and Shepard was tied to the two ARVNS.  We traveled, I believe to the west.

Q:  Terrain?

MTP:  No change - crossed river about 10-15 feet wide and 3 feetdeep. This was about 1100 - we left the POW camp at 0845 hours (I had my watch back). Crossed small streams.  As we neared Duc Lap we encountered more bamboo. Passed many areas of artillery and air strike activity - some were "fresh". Our blindfolds were removed after the noon meal for 2 1/2 - 3 hours and then replaced.

Q:  Did you then see any villages, etc.?

MTP:  No.

Q:  After blindfolds were put back on, how much further did you go?

MTP:  Just a short distance.  The main man had moved out ahead and we thought maybe we would be released that evening.

[The following is a narration of substantially what Mr. Peterson stated in response to questions asked and not recorded on tape]

Main man returned and we were blindfolded and taken back down the trail and up to the military crest of a ridge where we were placed in bunkers. These bunkers had well-constructed thick overhead cover.  The next morning we were awakened and headed up the trail in the same direction we were proceeding the day before.  At about 0900 hours we were lead to bunkers similar to those in which we spent the previous night.  We had breakfast there.  After breakfast we proceeded to the release point located 50 meters from the highway where we were picked up by an ARVN patrol.  Prior to releasing us, main man told us to tell our interrogators that our POW camp was near Duc Lap, where we were released and given the release order, one copy to subject and one copy to the ARVN prisoners.

The following is a narrative of particular portions of interest not recorded on tape:

1. At the very end of November or the first few days of December, a photographer from an NLF magazine arrived at the POW camp.  The photographer took approximately three pictures of Mr. Peterson having his bandages changed by the POW camp medic.  From ten to twelve pictures were taken of Mr. Peterson and SGT Shepard sitting on a log.  "Main Man" indicated at this time that if Mr. Peterson's and SGT Shepard's conduct were good, they might be released. This was the first time the possibility of release was mentioned.  This was the only occasion pictures were knowingly taken of subject.

2. The only problem Mr. Peterson observed in the POW camp was [their ability in] obtaining food. Every second or third day, one of the guards would leave the POW camp with full gear and a relatively empty knapsack on his back. He would return in a day with a full knapsack and perhaps a black sock, full of rice.  On the occasions the guard would return the food portions would be slightly larger and the vegetable portion of the diet would change until the next food collection.  Some of the food was canned. The cans were of shiny metal with no markings.  They did not appear to be US manufactured.  No C-rations or C- ration cans were observed.

3. The first POW camp was off any traveled path.  No personnel visited or passed through the camp. On the night of 8 December, Mr. Peterson and SGT Shepard had a statement dictated to them to write in their own handwriting.  They wrote the dictated statement not signing same.  The statement was in the nature of general confession.  On the morning of 9 December at 0800 hours a ceremony was held. "Main Man" presided in front of a table.  To his left and perpendicular to his table sat the POW camp officer with two guards. Opposite the POW camp officer and guards sat the US prisoners and opposite the Main Man sat the ARVN prisoners.  There were a few feet of space between each group; they were not sitting around the table.  To the US prisoners' right and diagonally behind and to the left of the ARVN prisoners was the second POW camp hooch.  On the steps and inside the hooch were the other guards and the troops who had entered the area the preceding day.  The ceremony proceeded as follows: The POW camp officer saluted the NLF flag by shouting at it; the confessions of the ARVN and US prisoners were first read in Vietnamese and then in English; the confessions were then signed; tape recordings of the prisoners reading their respective confessions were made; "Main Man" read the release order in Vietnamese to the POW camp officer and the ARVN prisoners; "Main Man" read the release order in English to the US prisoners; subject's watch and ring were returned; SGT Shepard was presented $45 MPC, series 661 and 641, for his watch which had been destroyed when his helicopter crashed.  Mr. Peterson and SGT Shepard were presented one each new NVA khaki fatigues, Ho Chi Mini sandals, carry-all bags, towels, toothbrushes and toothpaste.  The ceremony ended at 0845 hours, at which time the prisoners were taken out of the camp toward the release point.

Agent's notes: The above questions and answers are not in all cases verbatim transcripts of the tape recordings.  The narrated portion at the end of the above message were prepared by S/A Wearn.