.32 S&W and .32 S&W Long... by Scott aka GunFan

The little .32 S&W (Short) has some interesting ballistics from a 3 1/2" barrel. 88-grain Remington-Peters factory fodder runs about 657 fps. 85-grain Winchester-Western runs about 679 from the same tube. Energies produced are about 84-1/3 fpe and 60-2/3 fpe respectively. Place this energy on a .311"-.314" diameter bullet, and - Plunk! These should stop either an enraged field mouse or put "the hurts" on most garden pests without threatening to put a hole in the neighbor's house! Moles, ground hogs and other aberrant vermin, beware! No matter what anyone says, these little loads beat the daylights out of the .22 handgun when it comes to close-range pest eradication!

When it comes to the .32 S&W Long, modern propellants make this cartridge deliver quite a "nasty-gram" at close range! If the pests, are between 25 and 50 pounds, the .32 S&W Long should get the job done. Factory loads hve a bit more "oomph." From a 2" barrel a hefty 98-grain Remington RNL runs 632 fps and provides 87 fpe and the 98-grain RNL provides 626 fps and about 85 fpe. You must bear in mind that these loads were designed with the weaker, break-top revolvers in mind.

I frequently see 98-grain RNL ahead of 3.5 grains of Unique, delivering 979 fps and about 99 1/2 fpe from a 6" barrel. While not earth shaking, it can put down many a good-sized varmint quite easily.

I want to take the opportunity today to address those that handload for the .32 S&W Long. This is where the cartridge has an opportunity to "step from the shadows" and make a statement.

Those of us that are over 50 years of age, or have made an in-depth study of handloading, are quick to realize that the .32 S&W Long, while an extremely accurate cartridge, can be loaded to some pretty respectable power levels. Now this shouldn't be seen as a license to "firewall" the cartridge, ignoring the requisite prudence and reason regarding safety. On the contrary, the very careful approach of increasing charge levels, while keeping a sharp eye for excessive pressures. (e.g. flattened primers, excessive leading, stressed cases, etc.) A 1968 copy of Handloader magazine offered the following handloads for the .32 S&W Long.

WARNING! These loads are only suitable for use in modern, solid-framed revolvers in good condition! the following loads may, or may not, be safe in your particular revolver! Use caution when approaching maximum loads!

Note: All of the bullets used were of the Round Nosed Lead variety.

Bullet Wt. Powder Charge Velocity

Lead 89 Bullseye 1.5 695
Lead 89 Bullseye 2.0 745
Lead 89 Bullseye 2.5 880
Lead 89 Bullseye 3.0 1,010
Lead 98 Bullseye 2.0 770
Lead 98 Bullseye 2.7 910
Lead 98 Unique 3.0 735
Lead 98 Unique 4.0 940
Lead 98 Unique 4.3 1,010

Both loads yielding the 1010 fps with both propellants are maximum loads. If you look carefully, you'll notice that the 89-grain maximum load yields 201.6 fpe. That, sisters and brothers, isn't the earmark of a "flyweight" cartridge, suitable only for dispatching rats! This particular load can serious medicine for a vast number of household/garden/barnyard purposes. This particular load would be an excellent choice for the elimination of skunks, nutria, large (harbor) rats, opossum and the like.

The 98-grain, 1010 fps load yields a healthy 220 fpe! Is it any wonder how so many feral dogs, foxes, bobcats, and other larger vermin can be dealt a quick death blow with this potent load. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if such a load could be effectively employed for personal defense. If the bullet were molded as a truncated cone, hollow point, a 98-grain lead bullet, loaded in the .32 Long could easily reach into .380/.38 S&W Special territory! Some of these loads should shoot well in revolvers chambered for the .32 H&R Magnum.

Once upon a time, in 1974, a gunwrter by the name of Gorge Nonte was writing for HANDLOADER magazine. It was in the January/February edition of that year, when he published an article called, "Those unloved .32's."

After discussing several of the .32 Long revolvers being manufactured in the day, he began discussing useful loads for the cartridge. On page 36, he writes,

"... If you have one of the stronger guns, and want to make your own jacketed expanding bullets, velocities as high as 1,300 to 1,600 fps are possible in 6-inch barrels. Obtaining them requires a slightly undersized, thin-jacketed bullet of 60 to 70 grains weight, driven by a hefty charge of Bullseye or Olin 230 powder. In my own 6" K-32, a 63-grain thin-jacketed soft-point bullet made up by C-H dies produces 1,380 fps when driven by 3.5 grains of Unique. These loads show no evidence of excessive pressures in the K-32 or in either a S&W Hand Ejector or a Colt Cobra. At this time, no valid pressure tests have been conducted for the above loads, and this does not constitute a recommendation for their use. We do know of a .32 S&W Long pressure barrel under construction and when it is ready - and lab time is available - we fully intend to determine the pressures of those loads.

For general shooting, which includes small game, plinking, and occasional paper-target use to 50 yards, I have yet to find a load better than Lyman bullet No. 313445, weighing approximately 95 grains and of semi-wadcutter form. It is long enough and heavy enough to retain velocity well, it cuts clean, sharp holes in paper or other targets, and kills small game nicely without excessive meat destruction. I prefer to drive it at around 1,100 fps (6-inch barrel) with either 4.5 grains of Hercules (now Alliant) Unique or 3.5 grains of Bullseye. While Unique is really my favorite powder, I often assemble this load with Bullseye because it is a bit more efficient in the two-inch barrel length - and a little 2-inch S&W Hand Ejector gun in this caliber is one of my favorites for carrying afield because of its slight weight and bulk. That little gun may look innocuous, but with the Bullseye load it will puncture beer cans out to 50 yards with a high degree of regularity if I do my part. That can't really be considered poor accuracy from a two-inch tube."

This speaks remarkably well for the humble .32 S&W Long! While so many have relegated this little revolver to the status of a "relic" it appears that it can perform many chores that may consider a labored task for the .22 Long Rifle cartridge, and a bit excessive for the .38 S&W Special. It serves a valid purpose, and still carves out it's niche in the "overly full" revolver-handgun segment. Later in the same article, Nonte provides this .32 S&W Long load data:
Bbl length.
Bullet Powder Charge 2" 4" 6"

63 gr JSP Unique 5.0 gr. 990 1,310 1,400
63 gr JSP Unique 5.2 gr. 1,030 1,330 1,420
63 gr JSP 230 3.5 gr. 995 1,290 1,380
90 gr Cast Bullseye 3.1 gr. 850 1,010 1,100
90 gr Cast Unique 4.7 gr. 875 1,065 --
98 gr Cast Bullseye 2.7 gr. 830 910 --
98 gr Cast Bullseye 1.5 gr. -- 635 --
98 gr Cast Bullseye 2.0 gr. -- 770 --
98 gr Cast Unique 4.5 gr. -- 1,040 --

There's even more that this great cartridge can do! George continues to discuss this in consummate detail in this article. His propensity for good, old-fashioned ingenuity is reflected in his "kitchen table" assembly of target loads for the .32 Long. This can be readily seen when he writes,

"But the load that is really cheap fun is the old round-ball load i used in that H&R Bobby in the woods of Southern Illinois in the middle 1940's. It can be assembled without dies, without moulds, without any handloading tools or whatever. at the time, I acquired the H&R, I was temporarily without any loading gear and mighty short of funds. With the gun I got one box of mid-range wadcutters which I promptly shot up and proceeded to look for a way to reprime the cases. The traditional filed-down nail served to punch out the old primers, and tapping the decapped cases down over fresh primers laid face up on a hard, smooth counter top handled the repriming problem nicely until I could acquire a Lyman tong tool. Primers were laid face up on the counter top, and a close-fitting aluminum rod was slipped into the mouth of each case in turn and a mallet applied gently to its upper end to seat the primers. A charge cup made from a fired .22 LR case filed down to hold 1.0 grains of Bullseye was fitted with a wire handle and charges were dipped from a coffee cup half filled with Bullseye. Bullets were "O" buckshot thumbed onto the chamfered casemouth and seated flush by tapping them in their full depth with a small plastic mallet. Following that, a finger-dab of waterpump grease was smeared over the ball, partially filling the gap between the case mouth and the leaden sphere.

With this load, cases hardly ever need resizing, and loading is so simple it stinks. Cases last virtually forever if you don't get clumsy and step on them, and even at today's prices, (read: 1974) cost per shot is less than one cent if you're buying your primers reasonably right. I use this particular load regularly in the two-inch Hand Ejector, shooting in my office at a range of about 20 -25 feet. A stack of old magazines is adequate as a backstop for the slow-moving round balls. I don't know how fast the ball travels, but it really doesn't matter -- it does it's job.

All the same, this load must not be considered a harmless toy. Over the years it has killed scored of small game, and will punch easily through one-inch pine boards. It is definitely a lethal combination, and must be considered as such. In this impromptu in-office shooting, it can be relied on to produce neat quarter-sized clusters from the little two-inch gun if I am paying proper attention to the game at hand. About the only disadvantage it possesses for such close range shooting is that occasionally it sprays particles of grease downrange. The old waterpump grease I used a quarter century ago should be replaced under those circumstances by a dab of Lyman lubricant."

It should be readily apparent that the .32 S&W Long has all the versatility of the .38 S&W Special, but on a smaller scale. Upon careful consideration, that can be used to your advantage on many an occasion. Consider these facts. The .32's legendary "gilt-edged" accuracy, lack of over penetration issues, definitive "stopping power" for small game and pests, aside from the fact that a 25 pound bag of size "O" buckshot, 3000 primers, and a pound of Bullseye can provide you with months of cheap target practice is something that shouldn't be dismissed. Pest control? That's a given. A training round? It doesn't get much better than this. Fun? This round had more giggles in it than a tubful of popcorn at the movies. Its the easiest-shooting, handful of centerfire fun this side of the .22 Long Rifle. What's not to like? Rediscover the little centerfire .32 S&W and .32 S&W Long. As the old 1960's Alka-Seltzer commercial's line said, "Try it, you'll like it!"

"O" size Buckshot is .32 caliber. Each pellet weighs 49 grains. There are 9 pellets per ounce, 144 pellets per pound and 720 pellets in 5 pounds. There are 3500 pellets in 25 pounds. There are 7000 "Gallery" loads in one pound of Bullseye gunpowder. Your biggest expense will, indeed, be the lead shot and primers. Lyman bullet lube shouldn't be too costly. Cases will last for over 25 loadings. Their cost is relatively low.

Aren't "Gallery" loads for the .32 S&W Long inexpensive, easy to assemble and fun?

This was distilled from a neat topic on the S&W Forum with permission of the author.

Lyman 457192A in hand

My newly made mold, Lyman 457192A, arrived today. I'm excited. Now the grease grooves aren't quite as big as I expected but we'll just have to see how she does. No, I haven't cast any yet, it only arrived about 25 minutes ago!

.308 Winchester Die Sets - Hard to get?

Well, that's what I've been told, that, ".308 Winchester die sets are hard to get," and "we can order some in." But they either aren't or they haven't because I just went on MidwayUSA and ordered the die set. Easy as pie and in stock. Must not be a high profit item...

Thoughts on Reloading the 1876 .45-75 - Smokeless Powder Suitability

There is some controversy about using smokeless powders for loading the .45-75 Winchester cartridge, at least when used in the 1876 rifle. No less authorities than Mike Venturino and Dan Phariss have written and/or spoken out against the practice. Yet, loading "data" has been presented in Cartridges of the World and Ten-X and Buffalo Arms are producing ammunition loaded with smokeless powder(s). Owning a .45-75 in a reproduction Winchester 1876 Saddle Ring Carbine (SRC) this is a subject that naturally interests me.

Let us start by saying that the intent is not to exceed black powder cartridge velocities. As I will no doubt repeat later, somebody will want to "improve" velocities but that is not my intent.

One of the major arguments held by many shooters is along the lines of "why anyone would want to shoot anything but BP as in originals?" This argument has two basis. One is the historical accuracy, i.e. the reason for shooting these old guns and their reproductions, is compromised by using smokeless powders. Another is that there appears to be some sort of cachet attached to the use of black powder as if it is more manly (for want of a better word) to use the "real" thing. I frankly think that these "arguments" are inconsequential. Not all shooters of these guns are wedded to living history. Not everyone has reliving their forefathers' lives as a priority. Not all shooters' egos are threatened by using smokeless powder in lieu of "holy" black powder. There are shooters, perhaps a majority, who feel that at least some use of smokeless in their guns is a practical consideration.

While one correspondent felt that anyone could order black powder in quantities as small as 5 lbs and that therefor there was no "excuse" for using smokeless I have to believe he was wrong. There are shooters or possible shooters of these guns who live where possession of black powder is prohibitive for one reason or another. In as much as these cartridges must be reloaded, smokeless is the only other option.

I know that Mr. Venturino has mentioned in his writing that he felt that black powder was safer in the original guns. I sort of feel the same way but we have to realize that the Winchester factory produced smokeless loads for many of these cartridges and were using earlier powders with which they had less experience. None of those cartridges are known to have destroyed guns. Still, those old guns are now no less than 118 years old and the steels used are perhaps not in good condition for containing even black powder. Indeed, many of them have been used hard over that period of time. That does not apply to the reproductions as they are both newly made and constructed of well developed steels with which we have much experience. Yet another concern is that there is no hard data for these cartridges in these rifles. Certainly that is a concern. There will inevitably be some yahoo who will try to get just a bit more velocity out of his gun and use a powder or charge which is unsuitable. Likely, too, is that eventually some reloader will make a mistake and drastically overload a cartridge. Of course, these things happen now with smokeless in "modern" arms.

A corollary to this is the argument that one voids the warranty on your gun if you shoot these reloads. Interestingly, this is true of nearly every firearm for which we reload and that is not considered a impediment to reloading those cartridges in those guns.

Some of the concern about smokeless powders seems to be a concern that the pressure curve of smokeless powders will more highly stress the gun than the pressure curve of black powder. The idea is that the smokeless powder pressure will spike more quickly thus imparting an especially severe shock to the firearm. This contrasts with the seeming lack of concern for the pressure curve of the black powder substitutes such as Pyrodex or Triple Seven (often referred to as 777). One correspondent, John Kort, had this to say:

Regarding smokeless in toggle link actions, let’s take a look at the Winchester 1873 first. The truth is, that Winchester introduced smokeless ammunition for use in the 1873 Winchester rifle beginning way back in 1895. I have yet to hear of a ’73 rifle that failed using factory smokeless ammunition.

The powder that Winchester initially used for their 1873 cartridges was DuPont No. 2 Bulk smokeless which is similar in burning rate to today’s 4227. Shortly after 1900, they switched to “Sharpshooter” which was initially produced by Laflin & Rand, then DuPont and finally Hercules. Smokeless cartridges for the ’73 used this powder up until the 1950’s. It’s burning rate is similar to today’s 2400.

Note: Alliant has published smokeless data for the .44-40 with no disclaimer that it shouldn’t be used in a ’73 Winchester rifle.

I have a ’73 Winchester that was made in 1882. I shoot both smokeless and b.p. ammunition in it. To date, it’s hammer has dropped on about 2,500 hand loaded smokeless and 1,000 b.p. cartridges. Smokeless cartridges were loaded with slower burning 4227 which were pressure tested at a ballistics lab and produced pressures within the SAMMI MAP (max average pressure) specifications for the .44-40. It’s still working great.

Now on to the ’76.

Winchester began their development of smokeless ammunition for b.p. cartridges in the late 1893-1894 time period. They started introducing these types of smokeless cartridges in late 1894 and development continued over the next few years until all the smokeless b.p rounds were complete….all, that is, except for the ’76 cartridges.

Why? Well, unfortunately, by that time, the ’76 had pretty much run it’s course, so there was no effort made to develop smokeless cartridges for it. The one exception was the .50-95, which was offered in a smokeless version for a short period of time before 1900.

Until such time as there is empherical data for smokeless powder taken in a ballistic lab for the ’76 cartridges, users, unfortunately are on their own.

Some folks have interpolated data from the .45-70, of which there is data generated in ballistic laboratories for lower pressure smokeless loads. Stepping back to the late 1800’s…initially, DuPont No. 1 bulk smokeless was used in factory smokeless cartridges. Under a 400 gr. bullet, the charge weight was 28 grs. and was indicated to produce velocities and pressures similar to 70 grs. of black. DuPont No. 1 was similar in burning rate to 4198. Thus, the 40% rule was born (28/70). In other words, as a rule of thumb, with 4198, use a charge that is 40% of the charge weight of b.p.

Let’s see how that works out.
The Lyman ballistic laboratory recorded the following .45-70 loads for velocity and pressure. The similarity is remarkable!
From the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook:
Bullet weight: 420 grs.
70.0 grs./ FFG / 1,268 f.p.s. / 16,400 C.U.P.
28.5 grs./ 4198 / 1,267 f.p.s. / 13,900 C.U.P.
Interesting that less pressure was produced with the smokeless load.

Even Mr. Venturino in the October 2006 Guns Magazine article "Cimarron's centennial model: at last! The Winchester 1876 .45-60 is reborn. Cowboy action shooters get a 10-shot bio-bore repeater" said,

...if you use some commonsense, there is no reason they can't be fired with proper smokeless powder handloads. Because of their toggle-link breech-locking system these new Model 1876s still are not strong rifles, but shooting smokeless powders in them with loads duplicating black powder velocities and pressures will be no problem.

and

So how do you go about coming up with a smokeless powder load for a cartridge like the .45-60, for which no recognized reloading manual offers data? First, I looked up the ballistics of original black powder .45-60 factory loads. A reprint of an 1899 Winchester catalog said from a Model 1885 Winchester Single Shot rifle with 30" barrel the .45-60 s 300-grain bullet should be doing 1,271 fps. They also said such a load would penetrate 11 1/2 pine boards of 1" thickness at 15.

My pick of smokeless powder for reloading almost all antique and/or obsolete big-bore rifle cartridges with lead alloy bullets is Accurate's 5744. Therefore, I began working with it and the RCBS bullet. When a charge weight of 24 grains was reached, the 28" barrel of the new Model 1876 gave a velocity of 1,267 fps. I figured that was right on the money and started shooting on paper with that charge and both RCBS and Oregon Trail bullets.

but he also says about the old iron-framed guns

Since originals are so old, and most of their receivers likely forged of iron instead of steel, I recommend they only be fired with black powder ammunition.

Clearly, Mr. Venturino has taken a reasoned a balanced approach to the question. Can we not do the same?

Another comment was made by a restorer of these and other old guns. Known as Colt1849 on the Leverguns.com forum, he had this to say:

Had the opportunity to look at a Winchester 1876 that had a serious over charge of smokeless shot through it, causing a complete separation of the case and head. Barrel right at the chamber area was blown out at the bottom, about 3 inches of the bottom half of the barrel was in pieces. This caused a secondary detonation of the cartridge in the mag tube. Mag tube had a “banana peel” split the first few inches, then split along the top seam for about 6 inches. Forend was completely shattered, what remained was toothpicks. Frame had split & expanded in the barrel threaded area to almost the lifter area. What did surprise me as that the links held with no measurable distortion or damage.

Understand that the shooter walked away from this mishap. Someone turned a $4000 gun into scrap very quickly.

Let's return to this concept of pressure "spikes", i.e. a rapid peaking pressure curve. There is a belief that this spike increases breach thrust and thus strains the weak toggle link system. However, I can't see that the pressure maximum, aka spike, if lower (as John mentions above) can create greater shock to the system. That simply makes no sense particularly when we compare one cartridge to itself on the same system. The idea that the more rapidly rising pressure increases the case head velocity in creating breach thrust doesn't bear out on other systems. E.g. in the Contender system, breach thrust is widely held to be important and frames can be stretched. Yet, when chambered for cartridges such as the .50-70 use of smokeless powder is considered no different than the use of black powder. It is the peak pressure that matters, not the pressure curve.

Case body taper does have an effect on breach thrust, we can see this in various cartridges such as the .22 Jet or .25-35 Winchester. Yet, we are comparing one case, one pressure maximum, in one system. If we look at a max pressure of 18K CUP, how does the pressure curve affect the breach thrust?

So what powders are appropriate? John Kort recommends using nothing faster than 2400 and I have to say that I agree. Indeed, you'll not see data using such powders in cartridges of similar capacity. I also prefer loading density approaching 100% as closely as possible (as I do for all cartridges) but at least exceeding 50%. I am not a fan of fillers of any type. So what powders does that give us? Well, clearly we can follow Mr. Venturino's lead of using AA5744 and the tried and true substitute of IMR or Hodgdon 4198 (H4198 is actually slightly slower than the IMR product). Also long used is the very bulky IMR SR 4759. However, I will leave the details for the loading table.

As to the discussion and consideration of smokeless powders in the .45-75 Winchester 1876 reproductions, I'm sure it will continue, by naysayers and supporters alike.

Links:
- A (Very) Short Course in Internal Ballistics

I'm not ignoring my .45-75

I know I haven't been posting on the subject much. What I've needed is some bullets and I simply haven't had much time to cast. Most of my non-hunting time has been given to doing my Mom's business. Of course I'm always "casting" about for bullets and was put onto a deal for the Lyman 457192. Seems they'll be using the original cherry, too!

Gents, getting back to the bullet ... Learned yesterday, that the Special Run of the 45-75 Lyman 457192 will not be done using the 457122 cherry. Folks at Lyman dug deep and found the 457192 cherry which has the Big GG's that were on the original Ideal 456192's for this Special Run.

and

Lyman will be using the original Ideal 456192 cherry which was the one that they used for the discontinued Lyman 457192. I have 2 bullets from this mold cast in 1:20 and the bases are 459-460.

and

To get on the commitment list ... details are in my 1st post of this tread with this link ... http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35500

Make sure when you send John Kort the email, you include your name and a valid email address. John will reply back to you with details to contact the Distributor that will be selling the molds. John is maintaining the master spreadsheet of 'who's in' for the Distributor

I was told that Lyman will be making the molds before the end of 2007 which was a surprise.

This is pretty exciting but not moving along as fast as some shooters of more modern guns and cartridges might expect.

Chrony Results for the .45-75 Ammo

So, I got to the range and it was a mite interesting... First the results:

The TenX ammo with a nearly exactly 350 gr. bullet averaged 1165 fps.

Buffalo Arms (I have to break one of these down) averaged 1176 fps.

My "fireforming" load of 26 gr. IMR SR4759 under the 300 gr. Hornady HP averaged 1312 fps. I was a bit surprised by this. For some reason I thought it was going faster.

H-4198 under the Lee 457-325 (340 gr.) was 950 fps, 970 fps and 994 fps for 25, 26, and 28 gr. respectively.

Now for the interesting part. I put one more of the 28 gr. loads (I had loaded 9 of these) and pulled the trigger. I will note that I didn't feel a thing and thought I had a misfire. I stuck a Lee 457-325 bullet about .2" ahead of the chamber. Already knocked out with an appropriately sized hardwood dowel and 3 lb hammer I'm still trying to ascertain WHY the load squibed. Moisture? Crappy primer? One other note. 25 and 26 gr. of H-4198 (a recommended load in several sources is 24 gr.) all smoked as well as giving very low velocities.

Now, if the 24 gr. is so widely recommended, why? I can't see it. Gives no velocity, smokes the case, perhaps REQUIRES a filler. Makes no sense to me to use such a load.

The formula of using approximately 40% of a BP load as the starting point for a load using IMR-4198 gives us 30 gr. as a starting point. I'll be moving on up to that, I just want to hit original velocities, reliably, without squibs.

To that end it was recommended that I use magnum primers and I'm going to try that. We'll see. I'll carry the dowel and hammer to the range next time!

TenX Ammo for the .45-75 Winchester

I received my two boxes (for testing) yesterday. When I ordered it TenX was using Jamison brass. Now, apparently, they are using Bertram Brass and the price has gone up to over $75 a box of 20... Let that sink in. That's $3.75 a round (less shipping). Case forming and handloading, even casting one's own bullets, sure does look good now, doesn't it?

The box is Berry's Mfg #111 for the .45-70. It has a 1/2" foam spacer in the top to take up space and cushion the bullet noses as the cartridges are placed nose up in the box. The boxes were packed individually wrapped in bubble wrap and in foam peanuts. These boxes (unlike the Buffalo Arms ammo) suffered no damage in transit.

I had read somewhere that they were using the same European made brass as Charter/Chaparral was importing because Jamison's brass was unavailable. However, this is Bertram Brass. The BB is .564" ahead of the rim and the reformed/fireformed is .546" (interesting, huh?). Other case measurements that are most likely to interest shooters here are:
COL - 2.265"
Rim Dia - .626"
Rim Thickness - .060"
Neck OD - .4835"
Case Length - 1.878" (the case is crimped so it is likely longer after firing)

I got this ammo for testing purposes and today disected one round. If you must do this, don't use your kinetic bullet puller. The hole is just a hair too small to get the case out easily. Trust me on this. Use a collet type bullet puller.

The powder charge (I've not yet IDed the powder) is 19.9 gr. If you blow this pic up you'll see some bits of plastic. Those were not in the powder before the death of my kinetic bullet puller and I pulled them before weighing the charge.

As noted I don't know what powder this is. Recommended charges of IMR-4198 has long been 24 gr. I've used 26 gr. of IMR SR4759.

The bullet appears to be the Magma Engineering 45-70-350 FPD BB. The bullet weighed 350.1 gr. and is lubed with something other than SPG (it seems). I'm not a fan of bevel base designs but I understand how they are easier to produce and load.

Reportedly, this ammo produces very close to original factory velocities. I won't be able to check that until tomorrow at the earliest. I hope to be able to report on many different loads as I've got a bunch saved up!

Miscellaneous Thoughts, Mostly Reloading

The SPG lube and "manual" arrived today, only 2 days after ordering on-line. That's service.

Speaking of the SPG folks, my copy of the latest issue of Blackpowder Cartridge News also arrived today!

Called RCBS customer service. Wanted to order some O-rings for the Lube-a-matic. Once you get ahold of them the customer service is great. O-rings enroute to Hobie's house sans payment. They cost nothing. Why? Because my 26 year old Lube-a-matic is still under warranty!

I discovered the fault while lubing some Lee 457-325s for the .45-75. Now I'm wondering if the bullet can carry enough lube to work with BP. Guess we'll find out.

Speaking of BP loads for the .45-75, my ammo from Ten-X is enroute and due to arrive on the 29th. It will be interesting to see which brass, bullets and powder charge were used.

Speaking of the Lee 457-325 mold. It seems the problems I have with the left block releasing the bullet may be related to the fact that the sprue cutter has a small portion hanging "over" the bullet base even when open. Going to have to grind that part away. It might release properly then.

But in between dealing with this frustrating mold I've been casting some 100+ gr. jewels for the .30s (I'm going to use them to make my .30 Herrett a .32-20). Nearly every bullet comes out perfect.

Winchester 1876 SRC NWMP Reproduction - Revised

I'm making every effort to keep this post as the up-to-date and complete accounting of this rifle/carbine. If you see something missing, please, drop me an e-mail.

For many years I have been entranced by the stories surrounding the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and a predecessor unit, the North West Mounted Police. The idea of the lone Mountie (trooper) patrolling vast reaches of the rugged Canadian heartland with his odd mix of English and American firearms simply caught my imagination. Canada has some beautiful country and I could easily imagine myself and my dog team out in the middle of that wild country.

Look at these fellows on the left. Fit, proud, why wouldn't I want to emulate that rugged individualism in service. Note that these fellows, as are the men in the next photo, are holding the 1876 SRC!

Of course the reality of the times was different. Mounties often worked together, sometimes in rather large (for Canada) units. They not only patrolled the back country but kept order in towns and along routes to the gold fields and they suppressed insurrections. I'm sure that the 1876 Saddle Ring Carbines (SRCs) that they carried were well worn for a reason! Still, I wanted one of those carbines.

Back in the day, Winchester was producing the very popular 1873 rifle and carbines which were chambered for the .44 WCF (aka .44-40) cartridge which moved a 200-220 gr. bullet at about 1200 fps. Experienced hunters know that this isn't exactly the first choice for game such as elk, bison or grizzly bear. Ned Roberts reports in his "The Man and the Boy" stories how his .44-40 was not nearly as good as his .45 muzzleloading double rifle in killing black bear due to the heavier bullets and larger powder charge of the "old fashioned" gun. So, hunters out in the western US were demanding and buying rivals of the Winchester just for hunting. Winchester wanted to compete in the marketplace and hence the 1876.

Produced from 1876 until 1886 approximately 63,871 1876s of all types were built. The last 1876 rifle left the factory in 1897 and was likely made up of various unused parts. Most popular among collectors (and bringing the highest prices) are the SRCs and the Express rifles. Some of this is due to the relative rarity of the two types. E.g. only 1600 SRCs were produced for the NWMP and at one point they reported only 970 some were functional! The English Express rifles (those in .50-95 often referred to as "cat guns") are even more rare.

Like all Winchesters of the era, a multitude of options were available. Some were produced in one configuration and returned to be modified (adding the dust cover to early guns was one popular modification) to another configuration. In some cases, they were pulled from stock and modified to meet an order. Add to that all the "parts guns" that were made up after regular production ceased in 1886 and one should expect a startling array of variations.

Longer (and heavier) than the 1873 but still using the same basic action design, the 1876 (called the Centennial because it was introduced in the 100th year of the USofA) couldn't handle the .45-70 Government cartridge. Winchester's fix was to use a fatter, bottle-neck cartridge of .45 caliber using a lighter bullet to nearly match the .45-70-405 cartridge's terminal ballistics. This it did. Winchester later produced the 1876 also chambered for 3 other cartridges as shown. Of course my gun had to be a .45-75 as were the NWMP guns. Unfortunately, this will make brass and ammunition difficult to find and more expensive than the .45-60 which can be formed from the cheap .45-70 Government cartridge.

When the Parliament of the Dominion of Canada authorized the North West Mounted Police on May 23, 1873, to stop the liquor traffic among the Indians, they had to have rifles. The single-shot Snider-Enfield breech loader was sufficent cause for them to want a replacement and 50 of the 1876 Saddle Ring Carbines (SRCs) were tried in service. These were acquired through the I. G. Baker Company and 50 were in use by 1878. In 1880 another 100 guns were received. 300 of the SRCs came in the 1882 order and another 100 in 1883. In 1885, the largest group of SRCs was received by the NWMP, that being 446 guns. More were likely purchased but the records are incomplete. The marking shown in the photo to the right (as on the reproduction) wasn't uniformly applied so it might not be legible and some carbines don't have it at all. Later carbines had the "Spanish meter" sight which is very similar to the "military wind gauge" sight but not identical. Range markings on this sight are in meters. My reproduction has this sight as well as the NWMP stock stamp.

Now that I've received my gun I can tell you a little bit about it. The rifle weighs 8-1/2 lbs, has a 22 inch barrel and is otherwise as described. Of course it has the Italian proof markings but they are on the bottom of the receiver. Also on the receiver bottom are the serial number and rifle catalog number. The cartridge/chambering is marked on the barrel between the rear of the back sight and forward edge of the receiver. The barrel is also marked with the patent dates and the importer and maker name. Some folks might not appreciate their location or form but they are pretty unimportant to me.

The finish of the gun is pretty good. The oiled finish on the wood (walnut?) stock is average and seems to be in keeping with the original guns. Only the made-for-the-English guns had varnished furniture. The bluing is even and looks pretty good. There is a finish flaw on the loading gate where the rifle was loaded and test fired. This is mostly due to the different material/metal used for the spring steel loading gate. It should eventually wear to look like an original. The finger lever latch is very stiff. I haven't been able to turn it into position yet. Then again, I'm not forcing it and it isn't used when shooting.

Reloading/handloading is almost a requirement with the .45-75. Brass is the most critical and difficult to find component. There is properly headstamped brass out there. However, the influx of reproductions has created a surge in demand and stripped the market of most of this brass. If you find cases it might be a good thing to buy them then and there.

Of the properly headstamped brass, Venturino reported that the Bertram brass (which came un-necked) had to be reamed and fire-formed before use. I understand the the Bertram brass now comes formed. His fireforming load was 12 gr. of W231 under a .457" roundball. Mr. Venturino also notes that COL is critical. You can't be very far off before experiencing feeding problems.

Jamison International made a run of .45-75 brass and supplied both Buffalo Arms and Ten-X with the brass they use in making their ammunition (note: Ten-X is now using Bertram brass with a corresponding rise in cost). It has a good reputation for working in original and the Chapparal reproductions. Unfortunately for the .45-75 shooter, Jamison has some big government defense contracts and is concentrating on supplying those now and for the forseeable future. Usable brass can be made from several other currently manufactured cases.

The cheapest of these, although it is a seasonal production item, is .348 Winchester brass. Nonte says to do this: "Expand neck to hold .456" bullets: Trim to 1.88" length; Size full length; Fire form; use .456" bullets" but it is a bit more complicated than that. The details are what will get you on this and you can lose quite a bit of brass in the forming if you don't pay attention to the details. Venturino addresses this in some detail in Loading Leverguns of the Old West.

Brass can be had in two ways. One is that .348 Winchester cases can be formed by full length sizing them in a .45-75 die.

Venturino also says that these will get the shooter by, but are not perfectly correct for either the Model 1876's chamber or its extractor. The cases may form a slight bulge about 1/4 inch ahead of the rim, and sometimes an extracted case will fall back on top of the cartridge lifter instead of being ejected from the action. So, I don't know if results will be entirely satisfactory for all shooters in all guns. I think that you can do it relatively easily it being necessary only to trim to length, form, fire-form and load and the cases work in my carbine.

Paco Kelly gives his instructions thusly:

It is not a hard conversion because the .348 case is smaller by a hair in all dimensions except length. The only catch I found was after trimming when running the cut down .348 case thru the 45/75 die; first do it without the primer/neck sizer rod, then the second time do it with the rod in. that way you remove the small part of the tighter neck left after trimming without ruining the case. Also use a super slick case lube inside the neck area.

The 45/75 case length is 1.895" so the .348 case must be cut back to 2.0 inches. you need the extra 1/10th of an inch length because the case will shrink slightly in fireforming. so remove approx. .250" off the .348 case neck, chamfer well. Then run it thru the 45/75 die as described above.

The other dimenstions of the .348 case are very close to those of the 45/75. .348 rim diameter is .603", the 45/75 rim diameter is .616", the head diameter (just above the rim) of the .348 is .547" and the 45/75 is .560". the difference in size in both these measurements for the two above is about the same .013", the thickness of a thick human hair. So no problem.

Just like the rim thickness of the .348 is 065" and the 45/75 is .070" which is less than half a human hair difference. So then use a fireforming load. The .348 cases's beauty is its strength once made then it will last forever at 45/75 pressures. Remember, once fireformed the cases set the resizing die so it doesn't touch the new shoulder, ever.

45/75 CASE DIMENSIONS...
CASE LENGTH 1.895"
HEAD DIA. .560"
RIM DIA. .616"
RIM THICK .070"
NECK LENGTH.550"
CASE OVERALL LOADED LENGTH 2.25" CASE HOLDS 5 CCs OF WATER

Another brass source or alternative cases for forming the .45-75 are the .50-70, .50 Alaskan and .50-90 Sharps cases from Starline. I think the .50-70 forms up as too short (see far right case in the photo below) but the .50 AK case is 2.1" long and requires trimming only .22" and is cheaper than the much longer .50-90 Sharps.

Here's some dimensional info.

	.348 Win	.50 Alaskan	.50-90 Sharps
Rim Diameter	.603"	.6015"	.651"
Rim Thickness	.0665"	.067"	.064"
Case Head Dia	.546"	.545"	.5585"

Ok, to summarize the steps...
1 - trim .50-90 or .50 AK case to 1.90" using tubing cutter. Be careful because technique is required here as well.
2 - lube the case.
3 - run the case into the .45-75 full-length sizing die.
4 - anneal
5 - run the case through the expansion die
6 - remove lube (I use alcohol pads, I like ALL the lube off my cases).
7 - final trim
8 - LOAD!

Properly lubricated, a .50-90 case trimmed to 1.88" and run through the Lee full-length sizing die lengthens enough for a final trimming back to 1.88" but requires no fire-forming. Once a quantity of cases is made up one can do as Paco suggests and reset the die to just resize the neck (partial full-length resize) thus lengthening brass life. One important note about the .50-90 cases is that the rim must be turned down to function through the magazine tube.

As to sizing it bears repeating that the shoulders in my chamber seem to be forward of those in the sizing die. This could result in working the brass excessively. I'm thinking that the rifle manufacturers used the original chamber dimensions from original rifles and the die makers used the cartridge dimensions as published by Winchester and, as with many BP cartridges of the time, there's some slop to allow for reliable functioning despite fouling. I will probably partial full-length size these cases. If you look at the 2nd and 3rd case from the left in the below photo you can see just what we are talking about here... (click on the photo to go to a larger version) The fired cases have a different shoulder configuration.

Anyway, dies are needed to work that brass. As I write this the Lee Pacesetter 3 die set is $25.99. Lyman's Classic set goes for $41.99, RCBS wants $229.99 for theirs. RCBS has the forming die set for .348 to 45-75 for $412.99. CH Tool & Die offers the 45-75 3-die set (includes FL sizer, expander and seater) for $101.45. For forming 45-75 brass from .348W, CH sells three step sized expander plugs for $13.30 each and $8 shipping. The expander die body only is $13.30. That is a total of $61.20, incl. shipping for the complete form die set.

Bullets are, of course, also a requirement. I was planning to use the Lyman 457122 (I understand that the FP mold number was 457192 and the HP is the 457122) from Mt. Baldy Bullets but will likely cast them myself. This is a hollow point, plain base bullet and 330 gr. but is of the correct length with the crimp groove in the correct place. I went ahead and purchased this mold and have high hopes for both the HP version and perhaps a solid/flat point version. The Lyman 457122 HP weighs 336 gr. cast of 1/20 alloy and as somebody else noted would, if not a hollowpoint (that is the Lyman 457192), duplicate the original bullet very closely. the good news is that we were able to get together a limited run of the Lyman 457192 and Lyman will be using the original cherry. Now that I've received my Lyman 457192 I'll be casting some bullets soon.

Venturino tried the RCBS 45-300FN and RCBS 45-325FN the latter of which is about the best weight 345 gr. cast from 1/20 alloy. BUT he says he got groups measured in FEET! One has to wonder why. I think .458" bullets are more likely correct. Venturino says that even the old originals all had .457" groove diameter. and so I've got some on the way from various sources. Other possible molds for this rifle are Lee's 457-340-F and 457-325-F. I've got one of the latter which I received via Chris C. They seem to do well but I've not yet done any group shooting. Will be switching to SPG to lube all bullets when my current stick of lube in the sizer runs out. Until then the cast bullets I lube will be used with smokeless only.

A short note about lube. Some correspondents are telling me that 1.5-1.7 gr. of lube will work with blackpowder. I suggest switching to SPG as that lube will work with all possible powders and simplify bullet preparation.

Powder is another requirement. I plan on using IMR SR4759, AA5744, IMR 3031, IMR or H-4198 and good old black powder. The action will not permit nor will I try to push velocities above original velocities. That would probably be 1200-1300 fps in the short 22 inch carbine barrel. I know that there is a lot of discussion out there about the choices of powders for this cartridge with some decrying the use of any smokeless powders and even some foolhardy individuals pushing the envelope. It seems to me that the loads used should not exceed 18K CUP. One should be able to duplicate original velocities with like weight bullets and thus equal original performance. That should be good enough for deer and black bear even if the ballistics aren't impressive today.

Crimping is another concern particularly for shooters using original bullets over smokeless powder. Why? Because the original bullets are designed to be crimped over the front band and the bullet supported by a case full (and compressed) charge of black powder. Smokeless won't fill the case and some fear that the bullet will be set back in the magazine resulting is an unintended and disastrous pressure increase. Orville C. Loomis in his article, "Shooting the .45-75 Model 1876" in the Summer 2001 issue of Blackpowder Cartridge News says that the crimp made by his original tool is very similar to that made by the Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD). That being the case, one can order a FCD from Lee for less than $30. Chris C., Grizzly Adams and I have ours.

Suggested Loads (these come from various sources including Cartridges of the World, The Home Guide to Cartridge Conversions, The Legacy of Leverguns, Shooting Leverguns of the Old West, and Blackpowder Cartridge News) however, I am not responsible for either the data presented or for your use thereof. You are on your own as to what is suitable and safe. Many experts recommend only blackpowder be used in original rifles and the reproductions are so new that I've not seen any comments on the subject from commonly accepted authorities.

Bullet	Weight	Powder	Charge Weight	Velocity	Energy
Lyman 457122	330	2400	20.0	unknown	unknown
Lyman 457122	330	XMP5744	21.5	1280	1274
Lyman 457122	330	GOEX FFg	70.0	1442	1524
Liberty 458-300FP	350	IMR 3031	43.0	unknown	unknown
Lead	300	IMR SR4759	24.0	1300	1126
Hornady HP	300	IMR SR4759	26.0	1400	1306
Lyman 456192	350	IMR 4198	24.0	1380	1480
Lasercast FP	300	IMR 3031	44.0	unknown	unknown

Now I just needed to get some ammunition together and go shooting! I've had the gun out shooting the fireforming loads as well as a few using bullets from an original Winchester mold sent to me by Grizzly Adams. Those bullets weighed 364 gr. lubed and sized and both they and my fireforming loads using 300 gr. jacketed bullets I normally use for the .45-70 seemed pretty accurate. While I didn't shoot them at targets I did use the crotch of a 3" diameter Sycamore about 80 yards distance on the upper bank of Mom's farm pond. This is a tree I'm going to have to take down anyway so topping it with the NWMP carbine was no problem for the environment and it was no problem with the rifle either. The sights held for horizontal dispersion as I could see the tree shake with every round but it was a bit difficult with that sighting point and the sights to hold the vertical. I'm looking to get some bullets cast and take my current stock of 300+ cases and really give the gun a workout.

Because of the popularity of NCOWS and SASS cowboy action shooting and reenacting, Chaparral and Uberti have decided there is a market for reproduction rifles and carbines, and some producers have stepped in the breach as it were and offered the things necessary to cartridge reloading. Many resources can be found on the net. Here are a few.

On-line articles on the 1876 Winchester:
- The Winchester Model 1876 by Kirk Durston
- John Boy's info on forming and loading with BP
- Winchester Toggle Link 101 by Larsen E. Pettifogger

Books on the 1876 Winchester:
- The Winchester Book by George Madis
- Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West by Mike Venturino
- Winchester by R. L. Wilson
- Winchester Lever Action Repeating Firearms Volume 1 The Models fo 1866, 1873 and 1876 by Arthur Pirkle

Sources for all things 1876 Winchester:
- Buffalo Arms - brass, loaded ammunition (smokeless and blackpowder), bullets, dies, rifles
- CH Tool and Die - dies
- GAD Custom Cartridges - loaded ammunition
- Graf & Sons - brass, dies
- Midway USA - brass, dies, molds
- Mount Baldy Bullets - Lyman 457122 cast bullets lubed with SPG
- Nevada Western Firearms - exclusive sellers of the NWMP carbines in the USofA.
- Old West Reproductions - custom, authentic copy of NWMP saddle scabbard
- Ten-X Ammunition - loaded ammo (smokeless and Triple-7)

Please send your corrections, comments or additions to me, Hobie via e-mail.

RCBS Lube-a-matic Fun with .45-75 Bullets & More

Well, today I cast some bullets for the .45-75 using the Lee 458-325 mold (another story) and went to lube and size those that were suitable. Well, well. First I can't get lube pressure. Next I find that the O-rings, both of them, are blown. Then I find that I've lost my manual. Fortunately RCBS has one on-line. Now I want to order the O-rings and RCBS's on-line ordering system is down tomorrow and Friday which evidently includes today on their calendar (of course...). So, I got a few bullets done. Wish I could have done more.

Then John Kort posted the following at the Leverguns.com forum:

For reference purposes from Winchester's 1895 Catalog:

.45-70-350 Winchester - 1,307 f.p.s.
.45-75 Winchester(350)- 1,343 f.p.s.

The .45-75 was never factory loaded with smokeless powder,
probably due to the short life of the 1876 Winchester.

The early smokeless powders used in the .45-70 were DuPont No.1 Bulk Smokeless (1895-1905 approx.) then Sharpshooter (1905,approx) thru 1950's).

DuPont No.1 Bulk Smokeless had a burning rate similar to 4198 but it was loaded to fill the case like b.p. Sharpshooter was similar in burning rate to 2400 BUT it was a disc powder with a hole in the center for more even burning with the airspace in the case.

Both powders were also used in cartridges as large as the .50-110 Winchester.

Based on the early factory development of smokeless cartridge options for low pressure b.p. cartridges, smokeless powders between those burning rates would be ideal. In the middle, is XMP5744, a modern day propellant especially designed for b.p. cartridges.
4759 would be another good one.

Here’s some relatively current data for the .45-70 with 340-350 gr. lead bullets with both XMP5744 and H4198, which I prefer over IMR since Hodgdon ‘s version features a smaller grain for easier metering. Perhaps now, though, since Hodgdon distributes both, they may be the same(?) like they did with H4227 and IMR4227.

340 gr. lead (Accurate Arms Data)
XMP 5744 / 27.0 / 1,314 f.p.s.
XMP 5744 / 30.0 / 1,494 f.p.s. / 14,600 p.s.i.

350 gr. lead (Hodgdon Data – Manual No. 26)
H4198 / 28.0 / 1,159 f.p.s.
H4198 / 32.0 / 1,387 f.p.s.

Since the .45-75 case holds a bit more powder than the .45-70, use of the above data should result in slightly reduced ballistics...maybe 50 – 100 f.p.s at the most.

Time will tell………

I've now gotten most of the old lube out of the tube (boy that stuff is stubborn!) and am about ready for some SPG. Going to order some this morning.

More on the .45-75 saga

I was out to Hite Hollow Range for a test firing of the .50-90 and .50 Alaskan brass reformed to .45-75 and discovered some things that I might have reasoned out had I taken the time for reason.

- anneal brass before forming otherwise some will split on firing
- .50-90 Sharps brass will feed two rounds from the "magazine", no more, as the rim is too big to enter the mag tube! (now why didn't I think to check that)
- even fireforming loads shoot high at 50 yards, 10" high! They were still high at 150 yards!
- Buffalo Arms ammo was only 5-6" high at 50 yards.

To illustrate in the photo at left you can see how the relatively hard Starline brass, further work hardened in forming, couldn't handle the light 15-18K CUP of the fireforming loads. It was recommended that I anneal after forming and I will likely try that as well. Either way, this is an additional step that I was hoping to avoid. The reformed Winchester .348 Winchester brass starting softer than the Starline, not a single case using .348 Winchester brass has split as these did.

These light bullet loads shoot awfully high with the issue sights, on the order of 10-12 inches high at only 50 yards. Rounds impact about 10" high even out at 150 yards. Calculations by one correspondent show that the bullets likely cross the line of sight at about 25 and 225 yards with the issue sights. Now that is usable for a soldier in late 19th century battles but to somebody who'll be hunting with this gun and is accustomed to late 20th and early 21st century sighting practices, a more usable system will be needed. In other words I expect that I'll either have to raise the front sight height or get a tang peep sight. However, I'll wait on that until I get a good usable load to which I can zero the rifle.

Also, I received another version of the cartridge specification/drawing.

.50 Alaskan Brass for Conversion to .45-75 Winchester

The .50 Alaskan brass arrived from Starline yesterday. I'm chuffed. Great stuff. Although I had Mom here for dinner last night, I grabbed a couple of minutes to trim and run one of the cases through the .45-75 full-length sizing die. Good to go. The one empty case ran slick as snot through the action.

Here's some dimensional info.

	.348 Win	.50 Alaskan	.50-90 Sharps
Rim Diameter	.603"	.6015"	.651"
Rim Thickness	.0665"	.067"	.064"
Case Head Dia	.546"	.545"	.5585"

This surprised me because I saw and was told that dimensions for the .50 Sharps and AK were the same. I'll have to load the cases to get dimensions on neck diameters as requested. The .50 AK case sized in one go and with the smaller case head they are noticeably easier to size than the .50-90 Sharps. Both cases will go in one go.

As to sizing, the shoulders in my chamber seem to be forward of those in the sizing die. This could result in working the brass excessively. I'm thinking that the rifle manufacturers used the original chamber dimensions from original rifles and the die makers used the cartridge dimensions as published by Winchester and, as with many BP cartridges of the time, there's some slop to allow for reliable functioning despite fouling. I will probably partial full-length size these cases. If you look at the 2nd and 3rd case from the left in the below photo you can see just what we are talking about here... (click on the photo to go to a larger version) The fired cases have a different shoulder configuration.



It is a trick to find the right pre-fireforming trim length when sizing this case up from .348 Win or down from one of the big .50s. Some good news is that .50-95 shooters will only need to trim the .50 Alaskan case to length, size and load.

.50 caliber cases to .45-75 - UPDATED

Well, I received both the .50-90 Sharps cases I ordered from MidwayUSA and 6 .43 Egyptian cases (converted from .50-70 cases) from Don in Fort Laramie, WY. Thanks again Don. Of course these cases have the same rim diameter but are too large for the .348 Winchester and .45-75 shell holders. I went to my dealer and bought a RCBS #31 shell holder for these cartridges. First I tried running the already partially reformed to .45-75 .43 Egyptian case and found another problem. That .50-70 base is just too much for the Lee full-length sizing die. Can't get far enough down the base to fully form the cartridge. I'm for sure not going to try this with the .50-90 as the case heads are the same diameter. Best not to waste more cases than necessary! More thinking is required.

UPDATE 9-18-07

I finally hit upon a lube method that did permit me to both insert the trimmed .50-90 brass in the full-length sizing die and to remove it but the case necks had horrible lube folds. Annealing is next, I didn't want to do that but can't afford not to with brass at these prices!

UPDATED 9-19-07

Man, I'm just so excited! As so often happens a thing isn't impossible to do but one has to hit on the technique to make it possible given the tools available. I knew that I could reform the .50-90 brass but hadn't hit on the technique necessary.

As can be seen in the above pic, I can now reform the .50-90 (and this means the .50-70 and .50 AK as well) brass to .45-75. What's best NOW is that I can do it in a single lever stroke in the full-length resizing die. I think the base is still a bit of a problem, but with differential lubing (and some folks with good lube to begin with won't need to do this) a trimmed case can be run into the die in one stroke and go get 'em. This is without annealing!

So what is differential lubing? Well, what I'm doing is lubing the trimmed .50-90 case with my usual RCBS lube on the lube pad. Then I'm shielding the top half of the case with my fingers (one could use paper if doing a number of cases at once) and spraying with the RCBS spray lube. That lube on the whole case produce the lube dents seen in the case second from the right in the below photo (labeled "with lube dents").

This really makes using the .50 AK brass more cost effective. With the .348 brass being about 1/2 to 3/4 the cost you can save in a lot of time in converting a lot of brass. I want to have a lot of one load loaded because I want to use the gun as I would any other gun and that means having brass to have ammo loaded for everything from plinking to groundhogs to deer. That's a lot of case forming. I'm not going back to reforming .348 Win unless I run out of everything else. I will have to try the Jamison if it comes back on the market or Starline if they ever produce it but I can see being able to have enough ammo to truly use the gun. I'm really chuffed about it!



I now have 250 of the Starline .50 Alaskan cases on order. These are enough longer than the .50-70 to give me full-length .45-75 cases but cost $.07 less each when compared to the .50-90 Sharps case. Oh, if somebody only made a form and trim die for the .45-75, now that would be usable with this brass. Just as with a .30 Herrett, one could simply lube the .50 AK case, run it up in the die, cut it off with a hacksaw and file, remove, chamfer and load. Wouldn't that be sweet?

Ok, to summarize the steps...
1 - trim .50-90 or .50 AK case to 1.88" using tubing cutter. Be careful because technique is required here as well.
2 - differentially lube the case.
3 - run the case into the .45-75 full-length sizing die.
4 - remove lube (I use alcohol pads, I like ALL the lube off my cases).
5 - final trim
6 - LOAD!

Lead Pots

I've come to the conclusion that it is an uphill battle to continue to try to cast large lead bullets with my itty-bitty Lee lead pot. Dad gave me this pot for my birthday. I suppose he didn't think I'd really use it or maybe he was just too careful with his money. I need something to cast quantities of the larger lead bullets for my .45-75. That thing is going to eat some lead.

I've been looking at the Lyman and RCBS pots. Most good words have been said about the Lyman pots and they should have it down pat by now! However, RCBS seems to be made by the same manufacturer. I wonder why they are not so highly rated? Not enough experience perhaps? And the prices! Good gracious the prices on these things have gone up. Oh, I know that it is reasonable given the value of the dollar but it is a shock to the system.

In any case I'd like another pot. A couple of years ago I cast up a quantity .730" round ball and tried to cast some .575" "minies". It was soon apparent that the upper limit for the current pot was about 300 gr. Bullets requiring more metal just weren't easy to do. Why? Because the pot couldn't melt enough metal to keep the mold(s) hot and produce good bullets. The small 4 lb capacity was soon exhausted by casting these large bullets of around 450-500 gr. then the mold would go cold while waiting for the next pot full of metal to reach casting temperature. This does for a lower volume shooter (maybe) but not for me.

So, I guess I'll be getting a new pot. I'll just have to save some money or luck onto a good used pot at a yard sale or something...

Primers and Ammo

I bought CCI Large Pistol primers the other day at $33.60 a thousand (with discount). Bought CCI Large Rifle primers shortly thereafter at $25 and change a thousand (no discount). Then today I bought Winchester Small Pistol primers at $20.50 a thousand (with the discount. All from the same dealer. Also, a brick of Winchester Super-X .22 LR 40 gr. "solids" was $24. Again with discount. Prices on components and ammo are rising.

I was asked if I was "getting ahead" on primers. Without giving me time to answer Ernie said it would be a good thing. He said that Federal had told him that they didn't expect to put new primers in the pipeline for two years as their entire production was going to ammo and much of that to the US Government contracts. I suggest that if you're a Federal primer user you get what you can while you can.

There are a lot of reasons prices are going up. #1 seems to be metal prices. Chinese demand is a big nfluence in the market for these and other raw materials such as cement. #2 seems to be energy costs. Energy to mine, smelt, and ship both refined metals to the plant and ammo and components to the wholesalers and beyond. #3 is ammo and component producers are experiencing huge demand for and are contracted to produce prodigous quantities of ammunition. Not only is ammo being used by our own forces in the war but the US is contracting for ammo for Iraq and Afghani forces and stockpiling for contingencies.

This last, #3, reason is the reason Jamison International is giving for not producing .45-75 brass. Phooey!

.45-75 Winchester Update 2

Will do. I can measure what I have now. It doesn't seem to get much bigger as I go, yet.

The 20 gr. IMR SR4759 under the 364 gr. (actual weight) ORIGINAL Winchester mold bullet was pretty light in the recoil and blast areas but still shot as high as the 300 gr. jacketed over 24 gr. of the same powder.

I'm now to the point that I actually loaded more than one at a time and I'm not too happy with how she feeds. These were much shorter and fed not quite so well. They do extract and eject ok.

I've shot her enough that I need to take her apart and clean a bit and inspect for possible problems.

Blue Dot in Reduced Loads

Here is a formula for rifle cases that holds true for blue dot..

Fill the case with Blue Dot until it overflows then level it off until it is just filling the case mouth and weigh the powder on your scale. That is 100%. Blue Dot can safely be loaded anywhere between 10% to 50% of that amount with safe pressures. Of course it is important to have a bullet appropriate to those velocities.

This is a convenient way to make .22 WRFM loads in your .223 Rem. However, It is easy to double charge a case and that can be BAD. One should work up, be careful and verify this info elsewhere. If something goes wrong with ammo you loaded you can presume that you did something wrong.

.45-75 winchester Updated, Again

Well, I've got 23 cases ready to final trim to 1.88" and with which to do load development work. I've really learned a lot in the preparation and fire-forming of these cases. I've gone ahead and counted out enough .348 Win cases to make a full 50 and formed those. Unfortunately, I lost 4 cases to split case mouths. On these cases I neither annealed nor dipped the case mouths in powdered graphite to lube the cases over the expander plugs. This is my current process.

1 - Start with .348 Winchester unfired brass.
2 - Run .348 case just far enough into .348 Win sizing die to round out the case mouth.
3 - Chamfer case mouth
4 - Dip case mouth in powdered graphite (lubricates inside of case neck)
5 - Expand in .38-55 (.375) expander.
6 - Expand in .444 (.429) expander.
7 - Expand in .45-70 (.458) expander.
8 - Full length size in .45-75 sizing die.
9 - Trim to 1.90"
10 - Load with fireforming load (in fact, any smokeless load can be used without modification for this purpose, BP or Pyrodex loads must be modified to work with the unformed case capacity).
11 - Fire
12 - Clean, size, expand in .45-75 dies and
13 - Trim to 1.88"
14 - Load and shoot to taste.

It is likely that some lots of .348 Win brass will require annealing. I've not run into that, yet, but I've a couple of hundred cases to make.

While my rifle will apparently use, just, cartridges loaded to an overall length of 2.306" a shorter overall length of 2.25" is likely better to ensure functioning. I've found that either the Sierra 300 gr. JHP or Hornady 300 gr. JHP are usable and loadable at this length in the 1.88" cases. This is useful info for those without access to suitable cast bullets. However, they do not feed easily through the action. If one has nothing else or is willing to single load them, they will work. Otherwise, look for the correct bullets. Mt. Baldy Bullets has the Lyman 457122 for sale...

I'm really looking forward to loading the Lyman 457122 HP cast bullet. It seems to me that this will be the best all around bullet for this rifle. Now, I've got no grizzly bears with which to "interact", so, my performance demands aren't too difficult. I've no idea which powder to use and will likely try several. One goal is to reach original velocities with black powder, Pyrodex and smokeless powders. I'm waiting to see if I'm going to use mostly BP or not.

.45-75 Winchester Update

I've just come back from Mom's place where I tried 24 gr. IMR SR4759 under the Sierra 300 gr. JHC in both previously fired cases and needing fireforming cases with excellent success. Measuring COL 1.91" (average) after fireforming they now have the distinctive .45-75 appearance. Tried one Coyote Nose's way. The case is fireformed (but not the .348" neck part) so that the base part is blown out. Run it through the foruming steps and trimming and you have a .45-75 case fireformed. Done this way the Pyrodex fouling is a pain to clean up. I'm going to try yet another sequence seeking to minimize problems/irritations.

So, I only have to finish fireforming and trim this lot to 1.88" and I'm off to the serious development races. Oh, I do still need to cast up a bunch of the 457122s and lube/size them. If I need another mold to break up the casting cycle I've got the flying trashcan .30 cal to do the honors (thank you Junior).

I need to find suitable boxes for ammo and a good cartridge belt (woven, Mills style) to haul the ammo to and from the truck (I do intend for this to be my truck gun for a while). I've got a lot of cases to convert as I'd like to have about 300 rounds put together.

All that said, it appears that one can load the Sierra 300 gr. bullet to crimp in the cannelure on properly trimmed cases and that the COL will be short enough to run through the action. For those interested in such in these modern steel barrels, that might be good info to have at hand.

Sixgun Shorty reports

MY 'pet' load for the 45-75 smokeless is 28 gr IMR 4198, 300 gr Meister LFP bullet;no fillers....
But i prefer to shoot a full case of Goex FFg, 2 .030 vegetable fiber cards over powder(card under bullet lubed with SPG), Lee compression die, seat and crimp 300 gr 3 lube groove bullet lubed with SPG
I have found best accuracy in my 45-75 to be with real BP.

COL for the 1876 .45-75

The apparent maximum cartridge overall length in my gun is 2.306". That is right at the longest that will feed through the gun. Some folks have been talking about 2.25" as a working max, which might be reasonable, and Venturino talks about 2.15" (if I remember correctly) as the max COL. We'll work on it a bit with properly trimmed cases and appropriate bullets.

Finally, A Loaded .45-75 Round

Being impatient and persistent I finally got the brass sorted out and decided to try some jacketed bullets. Those used are the 300 gr. Sierra JHCs I use in the .45-70. I am trying these over 20 gr. of IMR SR4759. Should do to try the gun out. My main problem now is finding the time to do some casting of the Lyman 457122 HPs. Once I get a quantity cast I should be good to go and it will only be a matter of finding an effective powder charge (smokeless first and then a Pyrodex and a BP load). I'm liking this gun more and more. It is very similar in handling characteristics to the 1886 SRC. I may get the tang peep for this one.

.45-75 Saga Continued

Without time to do much in the way of pursuing shooting or reloading I've only a few things to report.

First, Grizzly Adams returned my now formed .348 brass plus some bullets and Ranch13 sent me some .43 Spanish brass. I ordered a sizer and top punch for my lubricator/sizer and received the mold for the Lyman 457122 HP. I was about to prime my formed cases for fireforming loads but ran into a snag.

I use a Lee Autoprime for priming and had the correct shellholder. Unfortunately, the base of the .348 Winchester case is too big for the throat of the Autoprime. Not a long standing problem as a quick modification/opening of the throat now allows the big case base ready entry into the Autoprime. Now to try a couple of loads.

Grizzly Adams' Reformed .348 to .45-75 Brass

"Grizzly" Adams of New Mexico offered to convert some brass for my .45-75 and I took him up on 10 pieces to see how his method using the CH Tool tapered expanders compared to my ad hoc method using expander dies from the .375, .429 and .457 cartridges which I had on hand. He was able to return the cases to me very quickly and they arrived Friday, May 25.

I must say that, before fireforming, his cases are neater in appearance and with smoother necks. They also seem to be more concentric. Next step is to fireform all the cases and trim to final length. I'll let you know how these cases look after fireforming.

.50-90 Sharps Brass and the .45-75 Winchester

The Starline .50-90 Sharps brass arrived today. I don't think it will do for .45-75 as is because the rim diameter is just too much larger to avoid turning it down. I haven't measured it yet, but it won't fit in the .45-75 shell holder. Nothing lost though, I've been thinking of a .50-90...

I also got the Lyman 457122 mold and I'm chuffed about that. Just need time to cast some up (and a sizing die and top punch for my sizer...)

Miscellaneous

Bought a single box of Hornady .308 220 gr. RN bullets yesterday. $30. Prices just keep going up. Read this topic on The Perfect Union. I suggest that you do as I've been recommending and get the components and rimfire ammo you can afford, now. The prices will only go up. T