THE SEARCH FOR

THE REAL

TRIUMPH RACING GREEN (conifer)

Since my restoration began, I have been paying close attention to the various versions of Conifer/Triumph Racing Green #25 that are found on the TR4 series.  At the shows, I have yet to see one with the original paint.  I have seen some rather weathered cars with the original paint.  Even on my car, I can not be sure that the original paint now looks the same as when new.  It seems that the color was pretty much the same for the run of TR4 and TR4A.  I am not so sure that it was exactly the same for later models even if the code stayed the same.  One reference I found quoted #25 having the same mix from 1963 thru 1969.

In the shows where the owners had tried to get the "right" paint, I have never been impressed with the match of the paint to my visual memory of the paint on my car.  Most were somewhat lighter and yellowed.  I can't describe it well. but the tone was a little too "mint" colored.  One car that struck me as being beautiful and having the right depth, but still not quite right was :

   


      DuPont 1994 Jaguar BRG
     Basecoat: L9349
     Clearcoat: HFB94
     This is called "Brooklands Green"

This mix is too blue, and maybe a little too dark.  I despaired that the secret of the paint was lost forever.  I figured that I would make due the best I could by computer matching the paint off the inside of the trunk lid of my car.  Then I remembered that my father had kept a baby food jar of paint from the time the car required a new trunk lid due to my then 3 or 4 year old brother knocking the car out of gear on a slight incline.  It rolled back into a tree and bent the center of the bumper and dented the trunk.  Amazing damage for such a low speed crash!  I found the bottle of paint on the shelf of cans of paint from every car any of us ever owned.  It was still liquid!  It did have the viscosity of molasses, so some drying had occurred over the years, but it appeared serviceable.  I thinned it and then used a small cannister "Pre-Val" sprayer to make a 1 foot square sample.  I then had it computer matched.  The match is:


DuPont (Chroma One, or Chroma Base, or Chroma Premier Systems)
Mix size: 1 Quart
830J     HS Fast Green          137.0
841J     Yellow                  88.6
805J     Jet Black              118.8
801J     HS White                41.4
150K     B/C Balancer           500.2



This is too blue and does not have the correct gray tone to the background.   For some reason, the computer-matched paint is not a good reproduction of the paint.

I then got a match directly from a panel on the car.  This too is not a great match.  It has about the right green tint, but it it too "milky".  I think that there is too much of the combination of Black + White (gray) for the amount of Green + Yellow (greenish).  Another possibility is that the gray tone is too light and there needs to be more Black and less White.  I will be pursuing this further.  Here is the match:

Mix Size: 1 Quart
830J        HS Fast Green                    72.4
881J        HS Yellow Oxide                 26.8
806J        HS Black                          101.2
801J        HS White                           26.8
150K       B/C Balancer                     463.2
175K       Binder                               186.8

 


THE SEARCH CONTINUES:

I have heard that Paint Code #25 is not the actual same color over the years, so the TR4A #25, like mine might not
have been quite the same as #25 in a TR250.  So, you may find that even if I get a perfect match for the 1966 TR4A
code 25, it might not be the same as what yours was originally.

Nevertheless, I am looking for other people's experience in getting the "right" match. Please email me with your experiences!

Contact me at: rhodes AT comcast DOT net. [to defeat spammers this was “encrypted” Just substitute the proper symbol for the word in capital letters]


Here is one person's match for 1965 paint #25.  He says the match was not perfect to the existing paint on the car, but is was so close that it could only be distinguished on close inspection.  I checked the paint sample he gave me, and it is REALLY close.  However, when I tried to get a computer match to the sample, it was not right.  So, If you can get the real R&M paint, then I think you will be happy.

R&M paints (enamel, I think)

M68 -  9592
M26 - 15880
M5  - 19757
M60 - 21072


Here is a memo sent to the Triumph dealerships

TO: ALL TRIUMPH DEALERS - WESTERN ZONE BULLETIN: T-63-31
DEPT: SERVICE AND PARTS
SUBJECT: PAINT FORMULA TRIUMPH RACING GREEN DATE: APRIL 12, 1963
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Below are details of the formulas from Rinshed-Mason and DuPont products in
respect of Triumph Racing Green. The formulas are given for both enamel
and lacquer.

                               RINSHED-MASON
Lacquer						Enamel
U3844 -   Triumph Racing Green            2U3844 - Triumph Racing Green
No.565031                                 No. 565031
100  Lacquer Thinner      100             100  TE-01 S.S. Mix       100
407  30401 Black          507             452  TE-41 Black          552
186  30901 White          693             188  TE-21 Chinese Blue   740
156  30201 Chinese Blue   849             164  TE-71 Lemon Yellow   904
151  30701 Lemon Yellow  1000             96   TE-91 White         1000

                                   DUPONT

(246)-96778-H Duco       To Make     (93)-96778-H Dulux           To Make
Triumph Racing Green      1 Pt.      Triumph Racing Green          1 Qt.

#63-H	Fast Green         143       VD-5450 Additive               35
#58   Ferrite Yellow       254       #1      White                 154
#65   Black (Hi Strength)  347       #5      Ferrite Yellow        314
#54   White                431       #2      Black (Hi Strength)   537
#49   Clear                454       #6-H    Fast Green            909

(signed)
J.C. Smith
Zone Service Manager


I have some other paints that may be a serviceable match and are off the shelf colors (therefore less expensive?)

Ditzler            43232
DuPont Centari     96778A  This seems to be a modern equivalent
                           for the DuPont Mix from 1963!
Dupont Lacquer     8450L
Dupont various     8450    This is an active code in various modern formats (too yellow for my car) 
ICI                3736
R&M Solo           8307  (urethane) I have seen this paint and it is just a shade
                         lighter than the old paint (see above) I had on hand.  It
                         might be simply a difference in the surface preparation
                         of the two samples, however.
PPG                43232 (is PPG the same company as Ditzler?)                    


Here is a Sikkens formula computer matched from a 1962 TR4
     Form 3.75L
     Color      Amount
     732        1012.7g
      00        1213.3g
     575        1642.0g
     242        2231.9g
     297        2975.2g
     579        3765.7g


Here is some information from a knowledgeable person on the Internet TR list

Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:58:24 -0500 (EST)
From: donp@ncweb.com (don pikovnik)
Subject: Re: BRG, Conifer, TRG

Hi guys,
I think I missed the first message in the BRG mix thread but from what I
gather, there is some confusion over whether BRG, TRG are the same color?

Here's the information I have:

BRG	(ICI 2855)	used on TR2/3, early 4
BRG	(ICI 6XA1)	this is a darker variation of 2855, ICI adds variations or
"specials" when they identify a significant number of vehicles in the field
that do not match the original standard. This is usually due to poor
quality control at the factory when the vehicle was built.

BRG	(ICI CC43, MFG code 75, 254, or HAA) used on 1975 model TR6
BRG	(ICI 7JE5) darker variation of CC43
BRG	(ICI 8VD8) lighter variation of CC43

Triumph Racing Green (aka "Conifer") (ICI 3736, MFG code 25) used on TR4-6

I have sprayouts of 2855, CC43, and 3736. Early BRG is bluer and slightly
darker than BRG (1975). Conversely, BRG (1975) is yellower, slightly
lighter and cleaner (less gray value). TRG is about the same depth as early
BRG but somewhat bluer and chalkier. I haven't yet sprayed the variations
so I can't say what they look like. I can say that without a side by side
comparison, it would be very easy to mistake one color for another. This is
due to the fact that we can't really "remember" color with any accuracy.

All these colors are available from ICI in a single layer urethane called
"2K". You can find a local ICI supplier by calling 1-800-647-6050, speak
with Jim Skal. The variation terminology (lighter, darker) is ICI's not mine.

Don Pikovnik Coloramic Process, Inc.<


I have some "other"  BRG mixes  I quote from my source.  I do not know what "alt" means:

				CODE	Alt.	Alt.	PPG	ICI	DuPont
British Racing Green 1957-1967	75			42487	2855
Dark (B.R.) Green    1975-1976	75	43	HAA	45102	CC43	35912
Brooklands Green     1976-1980			HAE?	169?
Another Brooklands?				HMM?	45190?


From Joe Curry
Here are some items on Various Greens that  have collected:

1. Triumph Racing Green can be mixed as follows: (from TSB T-63-31, 4-12-63)

RINSHED-MASON Paint:

Lacquer...U3844 TRG No. 565031
p/K  Paint component    Total p/K
---------------------------------
100  Lacquer thinner     100
407  30401 Black         507
186  30901 White         693
156  30201 Chinese Blue  849
151  30701 Lemon Yellow 1000   

Enamel...2U3844 TRG No. 565031
p/K  Paint component    Total p/K
---------------------------------
100  TE-01 S.S. Mix       100
452  TE-41 Black          552
188  TE-21 Chinese Blue   740
164  TE-71 Lemon Yellow   904
96   TE-91 White         1000

2. Lichfield Green can be mixed as follows: (from TSB T-63-56, 8-22-63)

DUPONT

(246)-83738 Duco Lichfield Grn.  (1 pint)

#54    White               289
#58    Ferrite Yellow      362
#65    Black (Hi Strength) 406
#63-H  Fast Green          436
#49    Clear               459

(93)-83725 Dulux Lichfield Grn.  (1 qt)

VD-5450  Additive             37
#6-H     Fast Green          202
#2       Black (Hi Strength) 379
#5       Ferrite Yellow      580       
#1       White (Hi Hiding)   956

3. Lichfield Green can be mixed as follows: (from TSB T-63-69, 11-22-63)

RINSHED-MASON Paint:

Lacquer...U3520 Lichfield Grn (Lacquer)
p/K  Paint component    Total p/K
---------------------------------
100  Lacquer thinner      100
467  30901 White          567
194  30401 Black          761
163  30704 Ferrite Yellow 924
39   30306 Organic Green  963
37   30203 Astral Blue   1000 
 

Enamel...2U3520 Lichfield Grn (Per-MAX)
p/K  Paint component    Total p/K
---------------------------------
100  TE-01 S.S. Mix        100
260  TE-41 Black           360
251  TE-74 Ferrite Yellow  904
230  TE-94 Bright White    841
98   TE-31 Organic Green   939
61   TE-22 Astral Blue    1000 

(I also have the mix code for Olive green if you want it)

4. Here is a listing of all the Triumph Green shades I have on file:

Color/Model	Primany Alt.	Alt.	PPG 	ICI	Dockers Rinshed Dupont
                Code 	Code	Code	MIX	MIX	MIX	Mason   MIX
===============================================================================  
Elfin 20S Estate 						5171		
B. R. 	TR2/TR3						5761		
Elfin	TR2/TR3						5325		
Apple(Spcl Ordr)					42486		2920		
Fern 71 GT6 Stripe			50816				
Cactus 	63-69	15			43312	3735		3910	
Conifer(TR)63-9	25			43232	25			
Olive 	63-69	35			43311	35		3911	
Lichfield 65-67	45			42464			3520	83738
Laurel 	70-72	55			44264				
Emerald	72-74	65	HAC		44665				35253
B.R. 57-67	75			42487	2855			
Dark B.R. 75-76	75	43	HAA	45102	CC43 			35912
Java 75-77	85	205	HAB	45060				43914
Tara  Met77-78	HAD	148	 	45349				
Brooklands76-80	HAE	169	HMM	45190				
Poseiden Met	
     All 78-79	HAF	281		45507	


By Steave Freeman
On the Georgoa Triumph Association Website (gatriumph.com)
I called The Roadster Factory (TRF) for some advice from Dave.  He had an old DuPont code
of 8450.  He also had a DuPont Hot Line telephone number for help (800 338-7668).  I called
DuPont.  Paint code 8450 is still an active number and they had several choices for the
paint.  It is the correct color, Triumph paint code 25, Conifer Green (Triumph Racing 
Green). 

UPDATE (9/24/02):  Steave has contacted me with an update.  He has gotten some of the DuPont
8450 and it seems to be a great match for the original color.  He has compared it to several
original cars (with the original paint) and finds the match to be just right.
 


I agree with Steave's statement that the DuPont 8450 is a correct match for the original paint 
code #25.  However Don Pikovnik's statement (see above)that ICI needed to make a "special" match 
to get a darker variation is exactly on target.  I bet that I need that "special".  My sample of 
the 8450 is correct for some of the earlier cars.
After looking at hundreds of paint samples, I have come to understand the basics of the formulation
of BRG.  There are two aspects of the color.  There is the green tint, and then there is a noticeable
GRAY element as well.  I had never noticed or understood this.  Therefore the mix of BRG will have
a Green base modified by some Yellow tint ( I will call this "Greenish").  The Gray element is 
made from Black and White.  There is also a second-order factor as well, the ratio of the Greenish
to the Gray.  I have not yet learned to reliably "see" the difference between the balance of Greenish vs Gray 
and darker vs lighter.



I have seen another nice green which is in the right ballpark for color match.  I have not made a side-by-side comparison, but the
Mazda Miata 1991 thru 199? BRG seems to be fairly good. 


SEARCH COMPLETE   ?

I had about 8 half pints of various variations of BRG made.  Each one was decided based on the results of the previous.  It was very hard to
compensate for the second-order effect of greater amounts of black making the paint appear bluer (less yellow).  One of these mixes was what I called "85-85-58"  (i.e. 85% green and 15% yellow, 85% black and 15% white, 58% of the greenish and 42% of the grayish)  This color looked very close.  I then mixed another variation from the stuff I had on hand, and made "85-82-58".  This is an almost dead-perfect match for my car's original paint.  

However......

As I was investigating these British Racing Greens, I decided I did not know how faded my original paint is.  AND I saw another car painted a very correct-appearing green.  Without my original paint to compare, I thought it was "correct".  I spoke with Brian at Power British who had painted the car.  He had started with the Brooklands Green that I mentioned above and then hand-tinted it to get a more pleasing color balance.  He had not consciously
been trying to get a "correct color", but he was shooting for something that was in his words "suitable for the car".  Well, I think he came up with a color that
is really close to the original color for my car.  After comparing to my original paint, I think it is too blue, but I really liked it anyway.  I was tempted
to have him just give me the recipe for that paint.  What I did was ask him to tint this color further to get somewhere between the color as seen on my original paint (faded to some unknown degree) and that paint he had on the other car.  He made the paint for me and I love it.  It is EXACTLY what my visual memory of the color says it ought to be.  When compared to the my original paint, the color is more saturated (i.e. the green is a purer color) and it is slightly darker (i.e. the gray base is probably somewhat more black).  I would call this paint "68-87-71", but the green and yellow pigments are much different from those in my recipes.

Here is the recipe that I will be following:

Dupont Chroma System Base/Clear  1 Quart Mix

                     Non-Cum      Cumulative
832J  Green          117.3        117.3
806J  HS Black        58.6        175.9
801J  HS White         8.3        184.2
843J  Bright Yellow   41.9        226.1
150K  B/C  Balancer   462.0       688.1
175K  Binder          187.0       875.1

Here is the match I made to my fender.  It is a very very close match.  From a distance it is indistinguishable.  Compared to the above paint,
there is a greater grey-tone.  I do not have the proper stuff on hand to adjust it further to more of the greenish and less of the grayish.  I think that
between 5% and 10% more of the greenish will get it VERY close to the mix I got from Power British (using different pigments).  I include
the +5% and +10% recipes, but I have not actually MADE them so I can not vouch for their second-order effects on the green/yellow balance.

Mix Size: 1 Quart

                       My Mix    More Greenish (+5%)   MORE Greenish (+10%)
830J  HS Fast Green    111.3          121.0            130.6
806J  HS Black          78.3           69.0             59.7
881J  HS Yellow Oxide   19.5           21.2             22.9
801J  HS White          17.1           15.0             13.0
175K  Binder           187.0          187.0            187.0
150K  B/C Balancer     462.0          462.0            462.0

I am looking for any other information I can get.  Please let me know!  Contact me at: rhodes AT comcast DOT net. [to defeat spammers this was “encrypted” Just substitute the proper symbol for the word in capital letters]