THE SEARCH FOR
TRIUMPH RACING GREEN (conifer)
Since my restoration began, I have been paying close attention to the various versions of Conifer/Triumph Racing Green #25 that are found on the TR4 series. At the shows, I have yet to see one with the original paint. I have seen some rather weathered cars with the original paint. Even on my car, I can not be sure that the original paint now looks the same as when new. It seems that the color was pretty much the same for the run of TR4 and TR4A. I am not so sure that it was exactly the same for later models even if the code stayed the same. One reference I found quoted #25 having the same mix from 1963 thru 1969.
In the shows where the owners had tried to get the "right" paint, I have never been impressed with the match of the paint to my visual memory of the paint on my car. Most were somewhat lighter and yellowed. I can't describe it well. but the tone was a little too "mint" colored. One car that struck me as being beautiful and having the right depth, but still not quite right was :
This mix is too blue, and maybe a little too dark. I despaired that the secret of the paint was lost forever. I figured that I would make due the best I could by computer matching the paint off the inside of the trunk lid of my car. Then I remembered that my father had kept a baby food jar of paint from the time the car required a new trunk lid due to my then 3 or 4 year old brother knocking the car out of gear on a slight incline. It rolled back into a tree and bent the center of the bumper and dented the trunk. Amazing damage for such a low speed crash! I found the bottle of paint on the shelf of cans of paint from every car any of us ever owned. It was still liquid! It did have the viscosity of molasses, so some drying had occurred over the years, but it appeared serviceable. I thinned it and then used a small cannister "Pre-Val" sprayer to make a 1 foot square sample. I then had it computer matched. The match is:
DuPont (Chroma One, or Chroma Base, or
Chroma Premier Systems)
Mix size: 1 Quart
830J HS Fast Green 137.0
841J Yellow 88.6
805J Jet Black 118.8
801J HS White 41.4
150K B/C Balancer 500.2
I then got a match directly from a panel on the car. This too is not a great match. It has about the right green tint, but it it too "milky". I think that there is too much of the combination of Black + White (gray) for the amount of Green + Yellow (greenish). Another possibility is that the gray tone is too light and there needs to be more Black and less White. I will be pursuing this further. Here is the match:
Mix Size: 1 Quart
830J HS Fast Green 72.4
881J HS Yellow Oxide 26.8
806J HS Black 101.2
801J HS White 26.8
150K B/C Balancer 463.2
175K Binder 186.8
THE SEARCH CONTINUES:
I have heard that Paint Code #25 is not the actual same color over the years,
so the TR4A #25, like mine might not
have been quite the same as #25 in a TR250. So, you may find that even if I get a perfect match for the 1966 TR4A
code 25, it might not be the same as what yours was originally.
Nevertheless, I am looking for other people's experience in getting the "right" match. Please email me with your experiences!
Contact me at: rhodes AT comcast DOT net. [to defeat spammers this was encrypted Just substitute the proper symbol for the word in capital letters]
R&M paints (enamel, I think)
M68 - 9592
M26 - 15880
M5 - 19757
M60 - 21072
TO: ALL TRIUMPH DEALERS - WESTERN ZONE BULLETIN: T-63-31
DEPT: SERVICE AND PARTS
SUBJECT: PAINT FORMULA TRIUMPH RACING GREEN DATE: APRIL 12, 1963
Below are details of the formulas from Rinshed-Mason and DuPont products in
respect of Triumph Racing Green. The formulas are given for both enamel
RINSHED-MASON Lacquer Enamel U3844 - Triumph Racing Green 2U3844 - Triumph Racing Green No.565031 No. 565031 100 Lacquer Thinner 100 100 TE-01 S.S. Mix 100 407 30401 Black 507 452 TE-41 Black 552 186 30901 White 693 188 TE-21 Chinese Blue 740 156 30201 Chinese Blue 849 164 TE-71 Lemon Yellow 904 151 30701 Lemon Yellow 1000 96 TE-91 White 1000 DUPONT (246)-96778-H Duco To Make (93)-96778-H Dulux To Make Triumph Racing Green 1 Pt. Triumph Racing Green 1 Qt. #63-H Fast Green 143 VD-5450 Additive 35 #58 Ferrite Yellow 254 #1 White 154 #65 Black (Hi Strength) 347 #5 Ferrite Yellow 314 #54 White 431 #2 Black (Hi Strength) 537 #49 Clear 454 #6-H Fast Green 909
Zone Service Manager
I have some other paints that may be a serviceable match and are off the shelf colors (therefore less expensive?)
Ditzler 43232 DuPont Centari 96778A This seems to be a modern equivalent for the DuPont Mix from 1963! Dupont Lacquer 8450L Dupont various 8450 This is an active code in various modern formats (too yellow for my car) ICI 3736 R&M Solo 8307 (urethane) I have seen this paint and it is just a shade lighter than the old paint (see above) I had on hand. It might be simply a difference in the surface preparation of the two samples, however. PPG 43232 (is PPG the same company as Ditzler?)
Here is a Sikkens formula computer matched from a 1962 TR4 Form 3.75L Color Amount 732 1012.7g 00 1213.3g 575 1642.0g 242 2231.9g 297 2975.2g 579 3765.7g
Here is some information from a knowledgeable person on the Internet TR list Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:58:24 -0500 (EST) From: firstname.lastname@example.org (don pikovnik) Subject: Re: BRG, Conifer, TRG Hi guys, I think I missed the first message in the BRG mix thread but from what I gather, there is some confusion over whether BRG, TRG are the same color? Here's the information I have: BRG (ICI 2855) used on TR2/3, early 4 BRG (ICI 6XA1) this is a darker variation of 2855, ICI adds variations or "specials" when they identify a significant number of vehicles in the field that do not match the original standard. This is usually due to poor quality control at the factory when the vehicle was built. BRG (ICI CC43, MFG code 75, 254, or HAA) used on 1975 model TR6 BRG (ICI 7JE5) darker variation of CC43 BRG (ICI 8VD8) lighter variation of CC43 Triumph Racing Green (aka "Conifer") (ICI 3736, MFG code 25) used on TR4-6 I have sprayouts of 2855, CC43, and 3736. Early BRG is bluer and slightly darker than BRG (1975). Conversely, BRG (1975) is yellower, slightly lighter and cleaner (less gray value). TRG is about the same depth as early BRG but somewhat bluer and chalkier. I haven't yet sprayed the variations so I can't say what they look like. I can say that without a side by side comparison, it would be very easy to mistake one color for another. This is due to the fact that we can't really "remember" color with any accuracy. All these colors are available from ICI in a single layer urethane called "2K". You can find a local ICI supplier by calling 1-800-647-6050, speak with Jim Skal. The variation terminology (lighter, darker) is ICI's not mine. Don Pikovnik Coloramic Process, Inc.<
I have some "other" BRG mixes I quote from my source. I do not know what "alt" means: CODE Alt. Alt. PPG ICI DuPont British Racing Green 1957-1967 75 42487 2855 Dark (B.R.) Green 1975-1976 75 43 HAA 45102 CC43 35912 Brooklands Green 1976-1980 HAE? 169? Another Brooklands? HMM? 45190?
From Joe Curry Here are some items on Various Greens that have collected: 1. Triumph Racing Green can be mixed as follows: (from TSB T-63-31, 4-12-63) RINSHED-MASON Paint: Lacquer...U3844 TRG No. 565031 p/K Paint component Total p/K --------------------------------- 100 Lacquer thinner 100 407 30401 Black 507 186 30901 White 693 156 30201 Chinese Blue 849 151 30701 Lemon Yellow 1000 Enamel...2U3844 TRG No. 565031 p/K Paint component Total p/K --------------------------------- 100 TE-01 S.S. Mix 100 452 TE-41 Black 552 188 TE-21 Chinese Blue 740 164 TE-71 Lemon Yellow 904 96 TE-91 White 1000 2. Lichfield Green can be mixed as follows: (from TSB T-63-56, 8-22-63) DUPONT (246)-83738 Duco Lichfield Grn. (1 pint) #54 White 289 #58 Ferrite Yellow 362 #65 Black (Hi Strength) 406 #63-H Fast Green 436 #49 Clear 459 (93)-83725 Dulux Lichfield Grn. (1 qt) VD-5450 Additive 37 #6-H Fast Green 202 #2 Black (Hi Strength) 379 #5 Ferrite Yellow 580 #1 White (Hi Hiding) 956 3. Lichfield Green can be mixed as follows: (from TSB T-63-69, 11-22-63) RINSHED-MASON Paint: Lacquer...U3520 Lichfield Grn (Lacquer) p/K Paint component Total p/K --------------------------------- 100 Lacquer thinner 100 467 30901 White 567 194 30401 Black 761 163 30704 Ferrite Yellow 924 39 30306 Organic Green 963 37 30203 Astral Blue 1000 Enamel...2U3520 Lichfield Grn (Per-MAX) p/K Paint component Total p/K --------------------------------- 100 TE-01 S.S. Mix 100 260 TE-41 Black 360 251 TE-74 Ferrite Yellow 904 230 TE-94 Bright White 841 98 TE-31 Organic Green 939 61 TE-22 Astral Blue 1000 (I also have the mix code for Olive green if you want it) 4. Here is a listing of all the Triumph Green shades I have on file: Color/Model Primany Alt. Alt. PPG ICI Dockers Rinshed Dupont Code Code Code MIX MIX MIX Mason MIX =============================================================================== Elfin 20S Estate 5171 B. R. TR2/TR3 5761 Elfin TR2/TR3 5325 Apple(Spcl Ordr) 42486 2920 Fern 71 GT6 Stripe 50816 Cactus 63-69 15 43312 3735 3910 Conifer(TR)63-9 25 43232 25 Olive 63-69 35 43311 35 3911 Lichfield 65-67 45 42464 3520 83738 Laurel 70-72 55 44264 Emerald 72-74 65 HAC 44665 35253 B.R. 57-67 75 42487 2855 Dark B.R. 75-76 75 43 HAA 45102 CC43 35912 Java 75-77 85 205 HAB 45060 43914 Tara Met77-78 HAD 148 45349 Brooklands76-80 HAE 169 HMM 45190 Poseiden Met All 78-79 HAF 281 45507
By Steave Freeman On the Georgoa Triumph Association Website (gatriumph.com) I called The Roadster Factory (TRF) for some advice from Dave. He had an old DuPont code of 8450. He also had a DuPont Hot Line telephone number for help (800 338-7668). I called DuPont. Paint code 8450 is still an active number and they had several choices for the paint. It is the correct color, Triumph paint code 25, Conifer Green (Triumph Racing Green). UPDATE (9/24/02): Steave has contacted me with an update. He has gotten some of the DuPont 8450 and it seems to be a great match for the original color. He has compared it to several original cars (with the original paint) and finds the match to be just right.
I agree with Steave's statement that the DuPont 8450 is a correct match for the original paint code #25. However Don Pikovnik's statement (see above)that ICI needed to make a "special" match to get a darker variation is exactly on target. I bet that I need that "special". My sample of the 8450 is correct for some of the earlier cars.
After looking at hundreds of paint samples, I have come to understand the basics of the formulation of BRG. There are two aspects of the color. There is the green tint, and then there is a noticeable GRAY element as well. I had never noticed or understood this. Therefore the mix of BRG will have a Green base modified by some Yellow tint ( I will call this "Greenish"). The Gray element is made from Black and White. There is also a second-order factor as well, the ratio of the Greenish to the Gray. I have not yet learned to reliably "see" the difference between the balance of Greenish vs Gray and darker vs lighter.
I have seen another nice green which is in the right ballpark for color match. I have not made a side-by-side comparison, but the
Mazda Miata 1991 thru 199? BRG seems to be fairly good.
SEARCH COMPLETE ?
I had about 8 half pints of various variations of BRG made. Each one
was decided based on the results of the previous. It was very hard
compensate for the second-order effect of greater amounts of black making the paint appear bluer (less yellow). One of these mixes was what I called "85-85-58" (i.e. 85% green and 15% yellow, 85% black and 15% white, 58% of the greenish and 42% of the grayish) This color looked very close. I then mixed another variation from the stuff I had on hand, and made "85-82-58". This is an almost dead-perfect match for my car's original paint.
As I was investigating these British Racing Greens, I decided I did not know
how faded my original paint is. AND I saw another car painted a very
correct-appearing green. Without my original paint to compare, I thought
it was "correct". I spoke with Brian at Power British who had painted
the car. He had started with the Brooklands Green that I mentioned
above and then hand-tinted it to get a more pleasing color balance. He
had not consciously
been trying to get a "correct color", but he was shooting for something that was in his words "suitable for the car". Well, I think he came up with a color that
is really close to the original color for my car. After comparing to my original paint, I think it is too blue, but I really liked it anyway. I was tempted
to have him just give me the recipe for that paint. What I did was ask him to tint this color further to get somewhere between the color as seen on my original paint (faded to some unknown degree) and that paint he had on the other car. He made the paint for me and I love it. It is EXACTLY what my visual memory of the color says it ought to be. When compared to the my original paint, the color is more saturated (i.e. the green is a purer color) and it is slightly darker (i.e. the gray base is probably somewhat more black). I would call this paint "68-87-71", but the green and yellow pigments are much different from those in my recipes.
Here is the recipe that I will be following:
Dupont Chroma System Base/Clear 1 Quart Mix Non-Cum Cumulative 832J Green 117.3 117.3 806J HS Black 58.6 175.9 801J HS White 8.3 184.2 843J Bright Yellow 41.9 226.1 150K B/C Balancer 462.0 688.1 175K Binder 187.0 875.1
Here is the match I made to my fender. It is a very very close match.
From a distance it is indistinguishable. Compared to the above
there is a greater grey-tone. I do not have the proper stuff on hand to adjust it further to more of the greenish and less of the grayish. I think that
between 5% and 10% more of the greenish will get it VERY close to the mix I got from Power British (using different pigments). I include
the +5% and +10% recipes, but I have not actually MADE them so I can not vouch for their second-order effects on the green/yellow balance.
Mix Size: 1 Quart My Mix More Greenish (+5%) MORE Greenish (+10%) 830J HS Fast Green 111.3 121.0 130.6 806J HS Black 78.3 69.0 59.7 881J HS Yellow Oxide 19.5 21.2 22.9 801J HS White 17.1 15.0 13.0 175K Binder 187.0 187.0 187.0 150K B/C Balancer 462.0 462.0 462.0
I am looking for any other information I can get. Please let me know! Contact me at: rhodes AT comcast DOT net. [to defeat spammers this was encrypted Just substitute the proper symbol for the word in capital letters]